Talk:Ms.

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Full Stop Or Not

quick straw poll on whether to move this article: what do style guides around the world say for the full stop after Mr, Ms, Mrs?

• Fowler: non
  • Actually Fowler does deal with it, giving the account that give below. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
• Chicago: unsure, I think. Ortolan88 wrote something about it on the St page

What about other english-speaking countries? Australia? -- Tarquin 14:11 23 May 2003 (UTC)

The Canadian Oxford, the Globe and Mail Style Book, and the Little, Brown Essential Handbook for Writers all use the period for Ms., as well as for Mr. and Mrs. - Montréalais 20:45, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The 'Style Guide for Authors, Editors and Printers' by AusInfo/the Australian Government Publishing Service prefers 'Ms', along with 'Mr' and 'Mrs'. FWIW, they recommend the pronunciation listed in the Macquarie Dictionary, which is /m@z/ (i.e. with the relaxed vowel of about, rather than the vowel of 'mister'). 203.82.183.147 07:58, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

American (that apparently includes all of North America) usage always demands periods after abbreviated titles. No period is strictly British usage, and that of and most of its colonies and former recent colonies. Softlavender 11:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that Miss is old-fashioned, it's still widely used here in the UK, I would have thought it's still more common than Ms. Also, I pronounce it as mz, not mizz, am I alone in this or is this a varient pronunciation? fabiform | talk 14:31, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I too say (and hear) mz. Njál 20:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I was taught that since Ms is not an abbreviation it doesn't take a period (or full stop for those using the queen's english) Was anyone else taught that way? 65.209.165.170 18:32, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I was also taught no period - basically, Ms is it's own word, it's not an abbreviation for anything; but on those occasions when it comes up it becomes clear to me that NO ONE ELSE (except 65.209.165.170) was taught that. Similar disagreements occur regarding often. Fitfatfighter 04:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Ms. appears to be a US usage. Ms is British usage (and Australian, New Zealand, etc). --veracity-or-mendacity 14:18, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Bottom line: Ms is not an abbreviation (it is not "short" for anything), therefore, it should not be followed by a period. --Tonicw (talk) 05:01, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Bottom line: The matter is not one of opinion, it is one of standard usage. Besides, the article clearly states that "Ms." is short for "Mistress", as are "Miss" and "Mrs." By that logic, it's the Brits that are all incorrect, and "Miss" should actually be "Miss." However, whatever logic one wants to put to it is irrelevant... it is what it is... its usage is already set and we are simply here to state what that usage is, not to debate its merits. Njsustain (talk) 22:07, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Master

Somewhere, I'd like to put a note to the effect that a "Miss vs Mrs" equivalent does exist for men. It's not used at all in the United States as far as I know, but I certainly remember being called by the title "Master" when I was in England. Is this still current usage, and where would be a good place to note it? It's an interesting tidbit... Isomorphic 01:04, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)

How long is it ago that you were in England? It's certainly not in common usage anymore. Except for maybe extremely posh parts of the country. And Captain Pugwash. --Maikel 14:28, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

PS: according to the Wikipedia article on Master (form of address), the title has never been intended for unmarried or "virginal" men. In fact, quite to the contrary. --Maikel 15:12, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Master isn't widely used in the UK, but it's widely understood as being a male child. For example, the card game Happy Families demonstrates this readily. A lot of children still play games like these. The Warburton's website even has an interactive version! Ithika 15:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It's absolutely not current usage in the UK, and anyone who reports being called "Master" was most likely called that as a joke of some sort. A few people in the UK are aware of the usage due to old-fashioned Happy Families cards or similar, but I'd wager that most people haven't even heard of it. Kids these days are playing computer games, not old-fashioned card games, and very few are reading 19th century (children's) fiction, which is the only other place where the term is occasionally found that I can think of. The term was used for male children: I am not sure at what age it would be dropped, but the usage I've seen has been in contrast to a more senior man, so possibly up to 18 or so. I also can't recall seeing it in anything other than upper-class situations, possibly middle-class as well (think butlers!), but then earlier fiction was biased towards upper and middle class anyway.Elettaria (talk) 10:32, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

No Stop For The Wicked

I've just added the standard British English (without the full stop — which I'd have thought was peculiar even in U.S. English). The standard British approach is that the full stop is used to mark the cutting off of a word at that point (such as "Street" to "St."), but not otherwise (so "Saint" to "St", as well as "Mr", "Mrs", "Dr", etc.). Needless to say, many people get it wrong, and English is no longer really taught in schools... but that's another issue. Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:14, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Try telling that to the folks over at Ms. magazine. --Maikel 15:16, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

American usage is not British usage. "Ms." is an American term. Therefore the article gets American usage. Softlavender 11:07, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

No it isn't an American term, hence the article has both. 81.107.23.175 (talk) 22:16, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

By that logic the use of Dr, Mr, Mrs, etc. should all follow the British use of these terms. And as a matter of fact Ms doesn't 'get' a full stop (i.e. period) in the UK. Donnachadh 22:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Americans not having proper grammar is not an issue of the British. 81.107.23.175 (talk) 22:16, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

In England Master is still widely used when addressing males under the age of 12 - especially on hand-written letters but also in general conversation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.139.130 (talk) 10:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

As discussed in the "Master" section, the term is very much not in standard English usage today for addressing boys.

The full stop after titles varies enormously these days, to the point where there is no longer a standard usage for this. However, when the full stop is used, it is used for Mr, Mrs and so forth as well. Elettaria (talk) 10:52, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Ms., full stop (period), as per 15th ed. of Chicago

Ms. (or Ms) is a title used with the last name or full name of a woman.

Is "Miss" or "Ms." used alone as a term of respect in inner city regions of the US? --zandperl 20:00, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Ms. is Ms. in the U.S., just as we use Mrs. and Mr. (not Ms or Mr or Mrs -- she'd be Mrs. Miniver here!) I pronounce Ms. as miz, rhymes with whiz, liz, fizz; otherwise it's hard to say. --136.183.17.106 21:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)maryinbuffalo. I also just changed and, I believe, corrected the entry for Ms. based on my memory of the evolution of the term from the 1960s til now.

African American and southern cultures (inner city or otherwis) have used the pronunciation "miz" for both Mrs. and Miss since at least the 1800s. This was not an early use of the term "Ms.", simply a uniform pronunciation of the other terms, probably originally a colloquial shortening from the blanket term "Mistress" which evolved into all the other terms. Njsustain (talk) 13:08, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Moved passage from article

I've moved this addition by an anon editor to the Talk page; can anyone provide citations for these claims?

"During the 1950s and 1960s in the United States, "Ms." was the correct form of address when writing to a woman whose marital status was unknown to the writer. (Miss was reserved for unmarried women of any age; Mrs. referred to a married woman.) Because the title Ms. did not refer to a woman's marital status, its usage was championed as non-sexist language beginning in the 1970s, by those who argue that a woman's marital status is irrelevant and should not be revealed by her title. Starting in the 1970s, many women insisted on being called Ms. because they shared that perspective. A feminist magazine chose the title Ms. because it did not indicate a woman's marital status. As time went on, those who preferred to be addressed as "Ms." were perceived as feminists, and those who did not choose to be so perceived avoided the term, leading to the misapprehension that "Ms." was a term coined by 1970s-era feminists and to the politicization of the term."

--Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:38, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Here's something that I can't get my mind around: what's the point in introducing a new term "Ms" that is pronounced exactly like "Miss", i. e. the term one tries to deprecate? Why not just use "Mrs." [MISSIS] for all women, regardless of their marital status? --Maikel 14:44, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Although 'Ms' can be pronunced like 'Miss', it is not necessarily so. Most people pronoucne the S as a Z, and many people pronounce the vowel like in About, rather than in Miss. Also, Ms is trying to depricate not only Miss, but also Mrs, so what would be the point in using a new term Mrs that is pronounced (and written) exactly like Mrs, i.e. the term one tries to depricate? Why not just use 'Miss' (with a small spelling change and perhaps a pronunciation change, to reduce the chance of confusion) for all women, regardless of their marital status? —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 00:28, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info on pronunciation. As for the substitution of "Miss" and "Mrs" by "Ms", my position is that the simple deprecation of "Miss" -- i. e. the general usage of "Mrs" for all women regardless of their marital status -- would have been the better and far easier solution; incidentally, and for instance, this is how the problem has been addressed in France and Germany. --Maikel 13:23, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Dear Maikel -- "Ms." is NEVER pronounced "Miss." To do so would invalidate the creation of the term in the first place. It is always pronounced "Mizz." To pronounce it other wise is incorrect. Softlavender 11:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, "Ms" is frequently pronounced in a way that is near-impossible to distinguish from "Miss", which is probably the main reason why uptake of the term has been poor. If I ring a company, and they address me as Mrs, and I correct them to Ms, nine times out of ten they will write me down as Miss. I then go on record as being Miss, even though I deliberately said that I was Ms. Pronunciation is a definite problem with this term.

The last time that all women in the UK were addressed by the same title was centuries ago and the title was Mistress. Unfortunately, we can't revive that one for general usage since it's primarily used by dominatrices these days. Elettaria (talk) 11:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Ms used as early as 1700s

I was surprised to see that the article says Ms was used as early as the 1700s. I have seen 'mistress' and 'Mrs' used in that period as a respectful title but without implications of marital status, but have never seen 'Ms'. I checked the OED whose earliest reference is "1932 N.Y. Times 29 May III. 2/8 In addressing by letter a woman whose marital status is in doubt, should one write ‘M's’ or ‘Miss’?". Any citations for earlier usage? Bluewave 14:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. Neither the OED nor Merriam-Webster has a pre-20th C citation. The current version of the Wikipedia article contradicts itself, going on to say that "The use of Ms as a title was conceived by Sheila Michaels in 1961" (which implies that the modern use was conceived completely independently of whatever was or wasn't done sporadically in the 1700s, and that the previous paragraph was therefore wrong to deny that the use of Ms was the invention of modern feminism). Furthermore, the notion that the use of Ms as a title was conceived in 1961 appears to be untrue, given the OED citation that you give. -86.134.90.205 23:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

An anonymous editor made a bizarre claim today: a Miss Manners article is referenced that did not say "Ms." was used sporadically, but did say that the term was reivived. The author went on to claim just the opposite of these two things in her comment. I don't know what goes through people's minds sometimes. Anyway, unless a more authoritative reference comes forth, please do not alter these facts again. Random tombstone abbreviations do not a title make. Whether the modern usage came about independently or as an "intended" revival, it was nevertheless a revival.Njsustain (talk) 17:15, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Not derived from "Mistress"

At present (2012-07-25) the OED's earliest citation is 1901:

1901 Springfield (Mass.) Sunday Republican 10 Nov. 4/5 The abbreviation ‘Ms.’ is simple, it is easy to write, and the person concerned can translate it properly according to circumstances. For oral use it might be rendered as ‘Mizz’, which would be a close parallel to the practice long universal in many bucolic regions, where a slurred Mis' does duty for Miss and Mrs. alike.

As to its origins, I doubt Miss Manners's unreferenced claim that "Ms." is a revival of a centuries-dormant usage. See the NY Times "On Language" column by Ben Zimmer referenced on the page. It seems to have been spontaneously invented, and independently reinvented at least once, in the 20th century. The OED traces it to

An orthographic and phonetic blend of Mrs n.¹ and miss n.² Compare mizz n.

The pronunciation with final /-z/ would appear to have arisen as a result of deliberate attempts to distinguish between this word and miss n.²; compare mizz n., and perhaps also Miz n.¹

The statement in the lede

Like Miss and Mrs., the term Ms. derived from the female English title for all women, Mistress. It fell into disuse but was revived in the 20th century

implies that Ms. in its current incarnation, as a formal written title on a par with Miss and Mrs. -- rather than a spoken form with no distinct written equivalent -- is of equal antiquity with them. That assertion is not supported by the evidence. Consequently I am changing those sentences to

Like Miss and Mrs., the term Ms. is ultimately, though indirectly, derived from the female English title for all women, Mistress. It was invented (and independently reinvented) in the 20th century.

referencing the Zimmer article and the OED.

The start of the first section

"Ms.", along with "Miss" and "Mrs.", began to be used as early as the 17th century as titles derived from the then formal "Mistress", which, like Mister, did not originally indicate marital status.

cites two sources, but no specific location in them; one might have to read through each book to find and verify the claim. I have softened the assertion to

"Ms." (or at least such a pronunciation) along with "Miss" and "Mrs." ...

which is supported by the OED derivation of Miz, n.¹:

Forms: 18– Miz, 18– Mizz, 19– Miz'. Also with capital initial. Etymology: Representing a southern U.S. pronunciation of miss n.²

--Thnidu (talk) 04:37, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

References

Miss is not "old fashioned" and Mr/Master

In the UK, Miss is most certainly not old fashioned or out of use. Admittedly I've never worked in a high level office situation of sorts, but I've only personally known 1 woman who went by "Ms" and she was a widow who used it to avoid awkward questions about her husband. In the way some of my girl friends use it, I would assume that "Miss" is actually kind of used with the pride of being young, beautiful and free.

When I was a child I was always referred to as "Master" and it is an option on forms that young people may fill out. Unfortunately, my bank and everything else I was signed up to changed me to "Mr" on my 16th birthday (when you become an independant adult in the UK). Rather than campaigng for Ms, I'd rather campaign for Master so that I don't always have to answer the phone with "which Mr MacFarlane?".

You're quite right. I do database work for a UK company that takes sales orders directly from customers over the internet. According to our records, far, far more female customers call themselves Miss than Ms. -86.134.90.205 23:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

In Australia, it's considered polite to use Ms when you don't know a woman's preference. I know many women who are insist on being a Ms, while others still prefer Miss or Mrs. Personally I would take offence at being addressed as Miss (since I am not a flighty sixteen year old) or Mrs (since although I am married, I do not use my husbands surname). Oooh yes. I'm one of those nasty feminists. --veracity-or-mendacity 14:31, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"I would assume that "Miss" is actually kind of used with the pride of being young, beautiful and free." Er, you do realise how appallingly sexist that comment is, don't you?

Re. databases: I've noticed that when I say "Ms", many people hear it as "Miss" because they forget that Ms is an option, even when they're meant to be using it (the term's been around for long enough, for heaven's sake). Was it a database that relied on someone hearing the title correctly? Elettaria (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

If it's an internet database then I'd guess the vast majority of relevant entries are the woman themselves selecting the honorific from a list (or more rarely typing it in themselves) rather than a call centre staffer tapping in what they think they've heard over a crackly line.

As for usage the whole thing has become another minefield because "Ms" has brought its own can of worms as there are women who take strong offence to being addressed by the term with the result that often one doesn't have a clue what to use. Timrollpickering (talk) 22:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Spanish Señora/Señorita

The article mentions that the non-sexist form of address in Spanish is señora, but it's been my understanding that if I do not know a woman's marital status (or whether she's a virgin or not, which is supposedly also used as a distinction between señora and señorita), the safest route is always to use señorita, even if it's an 80-year-old woman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.222.240 (talk) 19:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

señor, ra [1] 4. m. y f. Persona respetable que ya no es joven. (A respectable person who is not young anymore). Any woman older than, say 50, shouldn't be surprised if called señora. Even older nuns are called señora (and I doubt that younger nuns are called señorita). Lubrom (talk) 15:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Portuguese Senhorita

Just like British and American English present different ways of addressing, however minor they may be, so it happens with Portuguese. Portuguese as spoken in Portugal presents important differences from Portuguese as spoken in Brazil. As such, a Brazilian would call a young unmarried woman as senhorita, but not a Portuguese, who would say menina.

Since this is the first time I'm doing any sort of editing at Wikipedia, I feel a bit uncertain about editing the article. However, the examples at the end ought to have the Portuguese with the two words, senhorita / menina.

Sarai --85.240.249.102 18:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Citations - problem with spacing

For some reason the citation I gave has irregular spacing in the "Notes" section - there's an enormous space between two of the words ("Cultural" and "Heritage"). Does anyone know how to fix it? --DearPrudence 02:52, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"The tape was erased for re-use by volunteers who regarded the Women's Movement as a joke."

Removed as the specifics of this interview aren't relevant to the subject matter. 195.24.29.51 13:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Inaccuracies and odd UK slant of article

Ms. is an American invention. Why is this written with a very clear and noticeable UK slant, even mentioning the titles of nobility in the first sentence? Why are style standards quoted from UK publications and not American?

And why is it claimed that most women prefer to style themselves Miss or Mrs.? That's clearly incorrect.

Bottom line: As "Ms." is an American word, this article needs Americn punctuation, American citations, and American usages. Softlavender 09:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

PS: Done. Article so edited. Softlavender 10:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

It ISN'T an American invention, that's why. Americans taking credit for British developments is almost a tradition though. 81.107.23.175 (talk) 22:10, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Softlavender, where does it say Wikipedia articles should take the US usage as default? I seem to recall the directive to be merely to keep British or US usage consistent within an article, however in this case I think it could be argued - since the article is a discussion of the term itself - that it should contain mention both usages. However, it appears someone else has already seen the need and fixed that already.

Also, I've also listed a reference to a US source regarding usage of Ms. to keep you happy. --veracity-or-mendacity 14:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi -- Nowhere did I state that U.S. usage is or should be Wikipedia default -- only that this article about an American word should be U.S. usage except where British usage is described. Also, it was I (not "someone") that retained the British usage when Britain is discusssed -- you can verify that by the versions I produced. Lastly, thank you very much for providing a U.S. citation. All of my reference books (e.g. CMS) were lost in a move. Softlavender (talk) 04:18, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi -- MS. is not an American word. Cheers 81.107.23.175 (talk) 22:13, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

This section seems to be making a lot of unreferenced social commentary rather than stating facts. It will need to be referenced and/or pared down. This isn't a place for random observations by individuals.Njsustain (talk) 12:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, I don't see a problem with UK and US usages in the article. I do have a problem with the article being written as if one is the default. Njsustain (talk) 12:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Speaking for the UK: last I checked, there was no longer a default title for women, either in business correspondence or elsewhere. It is definitely not the case that Ms is reserved for divorcées or business use. Many women prefer the title for simple reasons of feminism. I myself have used it all my adult life, since my marital status is nobody's business. Some companies will address women by default as Ms, particularly in a mailshot or similar. Others will address women by default as Mrs, especially verbally, and a great many women find this pretty offensive. I've just had to explain to two staff at John Lewis that they really shouldn't assume that every woman they speak to is both straight and married! Ms is particularly useful these days since the simple division of women into not-yet-married/married is long gone, and so many people divorce, remarry, keep their maiden names, are in same-sex relationships (both "Miss" and "Mrs" are wrong for someone in a civil partnership), and most commonly of all, may be living with a partner (not single, not married).

As for French plurals, they are highly formal, old-fashioned and only rarely used these days. People don't say "Mesdames and Messieurs" when speaking, they say, "Ladies and gentlemen", and the only time I've seen "Mess." used in written form, it tends to be something like a novel from several decades ago when someone is quoting a letter from a publisher, lawyer or similar. However, when writing a business letter to someone whose name is not known, "Dear Sir or Madam" is still standard, and women are occasionally addressed as "Madam" verbally, though again this is fairly formal and old-fashioned, and there are very few women who actively prefer being called "Madam". Elettaria (talk) 10:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Teacher called "Miss"

Someone has requested a citation for "... British school children may also address female teachers as Miss regardless of marital status." This is a simple fact of British society and, in my opinion, does not need a citation to support it although I can understand non-Brits questioning this. Finding material that demonstrates this and including proof that the teacher is indeed married may be difficult.
Laurie Lee's short story Village School features the crabby Miss B and her successor Miss Wardley. The children address Miss Wardley saying "Oh, miss, please miss, can I go round the back?" and "Please, miss, I got to stay 'ome tomorrow...". Does anyone know of a suitable citation where a married teacher is addressed as "Miss"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.178.181.71 (talk) 11:39, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

In the U.S. many school teachers still go by "Mrs." and alter their last names even though that is becoming far less common in business. It actually seems a bit odd these days... a bit archaic and self-depracating in a way... not that anyone doesn't have a right to style themselves in whatever way they like... but when the default is to alter your persona due to a marriage, it seems a bit unprofessional. But teaching is its own world. Njsustain (talk) 12:57, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I live the southern US and that's the opposite of how we did things. Thought Miss, Mrs. or Ms. might be used in writing (and have distinct pronunciations), in practice I think all our female teachers were called "Miss Lastname" by the most of the students. I think there might have been one or two students who called them all "Miz Lastname." Actually, I can't think of a specific occasion where I heard the word "Mrs." directed at a person in my childhood, much less anyone regularly referred to as such. I'm sure it was used, but I don't really recall it. But we're weird in the South, I guess. 216.226.176.142 (talk) 18:26, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

With UK schools, there is a definite variation based on factors such as region and in particular, whether the school is fee-paying or a state school. I went to a state school and an independent (fee-paying) secondary school, both in middle-class districts of north London, and at both schools no one ever called a teacher "miss" alone. You always called them by a title reflecting their marital status (I don't recall Ms being used at schools in the eighties and early nineties), or Dr if appropriate, and their surname, e.g. Miss Taylor, Mrs Moore, Dr Roberts. I don't honestly know how many schools use this, but it could easily be a minority. When I've seen TV shows set at state schools, "miss" alone seems to be the norm.Elettaria (talk) 10:38, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

I understood that female schoolteachers were addressed Ma'am.--90.206.67.139 (talk) 15:01, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

The article needs a citation where it makes generalizations about usage of "Miss" in the Southern US. The author appears to summarize/paraphrase from the Wikipedia entry on "Miss," which refers to the 1970s American television series, "Dallas," and an older and also fictional source, "Gone With the Wind." The "Miss" article also lacks a citation. When I attended elementary school in the Southern US in the late 1960s to early 1970s, our school principal referred to female teachers (phonetically) as "Mizzerz" when they were married and Miss when they were not. By intermediate and high school, I noticed different teachers being referred to as Ms. (Mizz), Mrs. (Missez), and Miss (Miss) (depending, I gather, on the teacher's preference). The students by this time often referred to teachers (when the teachers were not around), by their first names or colorful nicknames and often by no name at all when addressing them, particularly when eye contact was established. In formal response, the students sometimes replied with a "yes (or no) ma'am or sir," but such formality was uncommon beyond elementary school in my observation. In any case, the titles that children use to address their teachers is hardly evidence of the teacher's preference, and works of fiction are less relevant still. My own experience belongs to me, of course, but it is more substantial than a made-up tv situation or a deep reach into a fictional account of the American Civil War era as applied to the year 2012. During my childhood interactions outside of school, I do recall married women being referred to as Mrs. in many cases and Ms. in a few cases where someone's mother stated that to be her preference. Most working women I know in the Southern US today, whether married or not, use Ms. or their professional title, such as Dr., Professor, etc., in both personal and professional situations. Marie Provost (talk) 17:16, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the pronunciation

There was a second pronunciation listed for the schwa sound instead of the short i sound. The schwa sound is incorrect -- I've never heard it pronounced that way in 37 years, and I can find no printed substantiation of that, so I removed it. (Besides, as far as I am aware, the schwa sound occurs in polysyllabic words, not in single-syllable words.) Softlavender (talk) 04:47, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

It's often pronounced with the schwa sound in the UK. Although it is a single-syllable word, it doesn't have a written vowel, so a lot of people pronounce it without a vowel.Bluewave (talk) 12:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been looking around for substantiation of this and there certainly some examples where it is rendered phonetically as "muz", which I take to be an attempt at the schwa sound. For example, "Don't call me Muz", "Muz Germaine Greer", "I've always pronounced Ms as muzz". Bluewave (talk) 13:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Plural

The plural of mister is messrs. What is the plural of ms? --Camaeron (talk) 20:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

• Mss. or Mses. according to http://www.merriam-webster.com -- DanielPenfield (talk) 16:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The default for business correspondence...

I feel this should be clarified by the addition of '...in the USA'; it is unwarranted when applied to the UK. The citation for that point - 'Emily Post Etiquette Institute' - is also inaccurate for localities outside the USA. Strangely the article includes (further down) 'citation needed' for the fact that usage in the UK is sparse to say the least (outside of the BBC), yet I struggle to see how one can possibly provide a definitive citation aside from the fact that anyone in the UK would simply know it to be true (any online 'citation' would be no more useful or applicable than the Emily Post page). Yet twice this article suggests that Ms. is a universal standard for business correspondence. This is just not true in the UK (and I suspect anywhere outside the USA) except among the 'right-on' brigade. 82.36.75.208 (talk) 14:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC) xyster

What is the UK default? If you're writing a letter to a businesswoman in the UK, do you default to Mrs or Miss? Or do you actually have to waste time finding out if she's married? Ariadne55 (talk) 16:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with 82.36.75.208, although I would go further to say that to claim that some stylistic choice is 'the default for business correspondance', whether in the UK or the world at large, is highly POV, and pretty ill-defined to boot. Last time I checked, not everyone writes according to the same standards. Please (Ariadne55), don't edit the article to assert that it is the 'default for business correspondance' until we can achieve a consensus. Also: some website's (heavily prescriptivist) guidelines on what should be used in correspondance is not a good source for what is actually used, as in the claim it is being used to support, regardless of how "well-respected" you reckon it is. 219.79.186.13 (talk) 09:26, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

There are accepted standards for business correspondence. For instance, one would not send out a résumé on a purple index card. Emily Post's site is a perfectly reasonable cite; I've added a wikilink to show that. If you don't accepted the Emily Post Institute as an etiquette source, what etiquette expert would you suggest? The word "claims" is POV. I've changed it to "states", which is neutral. I've limited the quote to the U.S., though 82.36.75.208 never did respond about what businesspeople in the UK do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariadne55 (talk • contribs) 12:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

(I am 219.79.186.13) I like the current revision, although I disagree that "claims" is POV in any way, as it is true that the source makes that claim. However, I would say that "states" is largely interchangable, so it's simply a matter of taste. Also, I'd be very comfortable removing "In the US," as the source makes no reference to geogrphical regions, as far as I can see. There is a superfluous period: I'll remove that, and leave "In the US", so you can discard it if you wish to. Few comments: a statement like "There are accepted standards for business correspondence. For instance, one would not send out a résumé on a purple index card." is fine in Talk, but carries no weight in actual articles unless you have (excellent, considering the broadness of the claim) sources to back it up. The thing is, unless you have something such as a wide-ranging survey, a statement like that can only really be treated as your opinion, or as WP:OR. Even then, the only way to really reduce POV to a reasonable level is to directly state something along the lines of <A study conducted in YYYY by ORGANISATION concluded that "DIRECT QUOTE">. Gonelegit (talk) 15:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

French use for Madame/Mademoiselle questioned

As a francophone, I would like to seriously question the affirmation that the word "madame" is used for both married and unmarried women. It's a rather clumsy faux-pas to use the term "madame" for an unmarried woman and one is held to use "mademoiselle" when your common sense suggests that the person is unmarried (clued in by age or other factors) or when told the person goes under the honourific "mademoiselle". For instance, you would never employ the term "madame" for a late-teen or early twenties woman unless you know for a fact she is married. Address her as "madame" and she likely would correct you on the spot with a "ah non, c'est mademoiselle".

We don't have a citation for that claim (or the parallel claims for other European languages). So I've removed it. Here it is for discussion.

In other European languages, non-sexist usage in this regard usually amounts to using words more or less equivalent to Mrs. (madame, Fr.; señora, Es.; senhora, Pt.; signora, It.; Frau, De.; bean-uasal, Ga. and Gd.) for both married and unmarried women, and whether they take their husband's name or not. This makes sense as these are usually the direct feminine equivalents of the male counterparts (monsieur, Fr.; señor, Es.; senhor, Pt.; signore, It.; Herr, De.; máistir, Ga.; maighstir, Gd.), whereas the equivalent of Miss is a diminutive of the female equivalent (mademoiselle, Fr.; señorita, Es.; menina/senhorita, Pt.; signorina, It.; Fräulein, De.; ógbhean-uasal, Ga.; maighdeann-uasal, Gd.).

Anyone want to comment on (and provide citations for) the forms of address in these languages? --FOo (talk) 17:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

The terms may be of French origin, but they are English if used in the English language, and therefore may be used in a different way than they were used in the language from which it was derived. In English speaking countries, the U.S. in particular, it is presumptuous and rude to alter how an adult is addressed based on age. If one does not know if an adult woman is married or not, calling her "ma'am" or "madam" is perfectly correct. Calling someone other than an adolescent or younger "mademoiselle" would be considered condescending or patronizing. Even if you know she is not married, addressing her as such would be considered patronizing in most cases unless she specifically requested to be addressed that way. These forms of address are terms of respect, not ways to point out whether a person is married or not, which is irrelevent in modern interactions. It is this very reason that the title "Ms." was resurrected... because the marital status is not something that needs to be pointed out in polite company. Therefore "Madam" is univerally accepted in English. The fact that the French have not created an equivalent status which has a neutral marital status is irrelevent. I have no citations specific to this issue, and the article is on "Ms." not "Madam", so I won't be adding anything to the article.Njsustain (talk) 15:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, in Canada, there is a French equivalent to the English Ms. it it: Madelle(md) which takes is plural as Mesdelles (Mds.) You can look it up on French wikipedia:http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madelle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.227.150 (talk) 20:32, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Use of Ms(.) with foreign last names

In my work I have to sometimes translate things from Dutch (native) to English. Came across something that puzzled me. In Dutch, a name like Marianne de Vries will have capitalisation in the Dutch Mevrouw De Vries ('mevrouw' being 'Mrs(.)/Ms(.)'). What happens when I write in English? Ms(.) de Vries or Ms(.) De Vries? (Please note that in Flemish names of Dutch origin other rules apply; I'm not even going into the 'van der Meulen/Van der Meulen/Van Der Meulen' varieties). Any styleguides deal with that? Personally I think it would be a good addition to the article (as that very question was the reason I looked up the wikipage) but perhaps others think otherwise? Or is it just common sense and you should go with your 'own' language's system? --Charades (talk) 10:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

This issue is not related to the title used, so it would not be appropriate to add to this article. There is simply no situation in which the name would sometimes be capitalized and sometimes not capitalized. To answer your question, in English it is standard to use the name the person wishes. I would suggest that when writing in English for a Dutch audience, use the Dutch capitalization rules. If writing for an English for a non-Dutch (English speaking) audience, stick with the unaltered base name (such as "Ms. Marianne de Vries").Njsustain (talk) 14:50, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Ms.

The old pronunciation section just listed four pronunciations, ID'ing none of them as more or less standard, stressed vs. unstressed, etc. For say a foreigner trying to figure out how to pronounce it, just giving a bunch like this won't help. My dictionary, "Webster's New World College Dictionary", which is a medium-large dictionary at 1,669 8.5x11in pages, and which focuses primarily on American usage, only lists one, /mɪz/. This is clearly the stressed form in General American. When nonstressed, GA'ers might say /mɪz/, but in faster speech more likely /məz/ or even /məs/ before a voiceless consonant. In general, when giving pronunciations, we should focus on the "standard" pronunciations, i.e. General American and RP for British; identify the fact that we're giving standard pronunciations (which might not be universal) and identify variant contexts (e.g. stressed vs. unstressed, American vs. British). The reason for this is not to try and force the standards down anyone's throat but simply to avoid having what we had here: a large, random collection of variants, none identified as to which to use in which circmcumstance. Trying to list lots of dialect pronunciations just leads to a mess; and besides, the point of these pronunciations is mostly for foreigners, who will (naturally) want to learn the standard language of their adopted country. Native English speakers already know the pronunciation. Benwing (talk) 06:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

The South

"In areas such as the American South, a woman's first name or "Miss", with the inclusion of her first name is the title used and generally preferred for women of any age regardless of marital status."

I dispute this. I'm a lifelong southerner and I'd agree that it is common for children to do that or adults in front of children or in very informal situations, but in the business community or in more formal situations, it'd be almost unheard of. I second the "citation needed" tag. 108.93.144.242 (talk) 04:29, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

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Appropriate for single mothers?

Since single mothers are deemed to be unmarried women, is it correct to address such women as Ms. <surname>? If the mother has a daughter, then there's a need to distinguish the two if their surname is used in shorthand. Example, the older Ms. <surname> refers to the mother and the younger Ms. <surname> refers to her daughter. SignOfTheDoubleCross (talk) 07:48, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

@SignOfTheDoubleCross: Yes. Any woman, married or otherwise, can be addressed as "Ms."—that's the beauty of it. But, conventionally, "Mrs." only applies to married women and only when they use their husbands' surnames. With your hypothetical, I think I'd call the mother "Ms. Smith" and the daughter "Miss Smith." Rebbing 14:53, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

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Origins in mail order?

I heard that 'Ms' was first used as a convenient honorific for women in general by the American mail-order houses in the 1920's. Valetude (talk) 01:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Married woman

Some women take on their husband’s surname and the title Mrs when they get married. Some women prefer to keep their surname and use the title Ms --Backinstadiums (talk) 15:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

"Mses." ?

Fowler reads

The plural is Mss(.) or Mses 

--Backinstadiums (talk) 09:04, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Use of "Ms." as abbreviation for "Miss"

This article seems to make no mention of this usage.

• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ms+marple%22 100k+ references to Agatha Christie's "Miss Marple" as "Ms Marple" or "Ms. Marple"

• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ms+marple%22+%22miss+marple%22 4k+ examples using "Miss Marple" and "Ms Marple" interchangeably on the same page.

• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22ms+landers%22+beaver 1k+ references to "Miss Landers" from "Leave it to Beaver" as "Ms Landers" or "Ms. Landers"

• https://www.google.com/search?q=dolly+parton+%22ms+mona%22+-miss 100+ references to the Dolly Parton's character "Miss Mona" as "Ms Mona" or "Ms. Mona"

This seems prevalent enough to be worth mention. Is independently published research on this pattern necessary to get this usage mentioned in the article?

Sparr (talk) 15:45, 6 April 2022 (UTC)