Talk:Shrewsbury School

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Should there be a sport section

It seems to me like it would be a good idea to have a section on sport at shrewsbury. Most other schools have one.

Yes, and it should state that in common with most leading public schools, Shrewsbury is a soccer school. Ausseagull (talk) 21:58, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I've deleted the brief mention on sport that was nothing more than blatant boasting. --Kudpung (talk) 21:02, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

slang

I believe there used to be a slang section on this page, but it was deleted because apparently didn't conform to the "Wikipedia isn't for things made up in school one day" rule. I believe that the section wasn't contravening this rule, partially because other public schools e.g. harrow, eton etc. quite legitimately have slang sections on their wikis. Should I add the section in once more? Ericbobson 22:42, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't put it back, because the Eton and Harrow slang is an everyday part of the way of talking in those schools for both students and teachers. I suspect that the Shrewsbury slang is used by pupils mainly so isn't "official" school language. I'm saying it's "unencyclopedic" i.e it looks odd and amateur for a serious encyclopedia. And, to make it worse, the Shrewsbury slang has been written up in a childish and jokey way. - Adrian Pingstone 22:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I was a student at the school two years ago, and I know for sure that over 90% of the slang written in that section was used by both pupils and teachers alike. In fact I believe this is an official and integral part of that school's culture given that there were student bodies which authorised its use when I was around. - User:Cpkenyon 21:21, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary covers dictionaries of slang such as this. As with any school, while the slang may be valid it is not encyclopedic and should be removed. The basic idea is that outside of the school community, noone really cares. This kind of section is being removed from ALL school articles. Adam McCormick 00:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

A lot of the slang on this page can be generalised. All the words like 'jackwat' merely have altered syllables in them, and salopian slang is mostly based around the alteration of syllables. I will try to rewrite this section if someone agrees to collaborate with me. As for the lack of sources on this page, I have heard that a slang dictionary may be published in the annual school magazine, which would solve problems. Stephencraigen 22:51, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

All the faculties and society departments were in existence when I attended the school, and those were their respective heada. To clarify if they are all still around I would recommend consulting someone who taught there or still attended. - User:Cpkenyon 18:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Whoever deleted the 'slang' section - could it please be reinstated? I found it incredibly useful to understand what my brother was saying half the time, I know several friends did too. It doesn't need to be 'censored' because one person doesn't think its interesting or relevant - it is, and from a public school POV its also intersting to compare the different slangs. so I say put it back where it belongs, it definately helped me for one.

A slang section isn't even needed. Whoever deleted it initially is correct; wikipedia is not just a list of indescriminate information. I'm pretty sure if it should go anywhere it would be in Wikitionary. Further, as stated above quite plainly, Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary. So i'm going to remove it. 84.67.223.234 21:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I could put a short slang explanation in that would not seem dictionary-like at all, and just how the majority of Shrewsbury School Slang is formed (through the lengthening of vowel sounds). Would any wiki user object to this if I did it? It would not be a list of words. Stephencraigen 18:09, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I still don't think it would really be of encyclopedic value to the larger comminity of information seekers.. A whole section on school jargon was recently removed from the page of one of the most notable schools in the country - without a murmur.--Kudpung (talk) 20:57, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

LInks

Erm, but there's only one link, Snoyes... -- Oliver P. 01:27 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

Call me irrational, but to me "external links" just sounds more better, even if there is just one; There could be more in the future and "external link" somehow sounds too canonical - just as "external resources" would sound better even if there was only one. Oh well, its not that important - just change it to however you want it !  ;-) --snoyes 01:34 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

Oh, I expect I'm just as irrational, but the other way, since I obsessively change "external links" to "external link" wherever I see that there is only one... Tell you what, let's have an edit war over it! Last one to drop dead from exhaustion from adding or removing too many "s"-es wins... ;) -- Oliver P. 01:44 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)

You may want to consider upgrading this article to conform to Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools. Davodd 07:51, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

You may want to consider upgrading this article to conform to Wikipedia:WikiProject Schools. Davodd 07:51, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

The list of pupils includes Ian Hislop, but according to the entry about him here, he didn't go to Shrewsbury and went to Ardingly College. I personally don't think he did go to Shrewsbury, although many make the mistake due to the Private Eye connection. Does this need checking?-213.254.171.194 22:29, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Fees

This article says the boarders fees are £230,000 per annum. I don't believe it, whats the true figure? - Adrian Pingstone 09:56, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

About 1/10 of that figure, where did you get that from? 81.156.107.145 22:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

From the article, of course- Adrian Pingstone 22:56, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

The current figure for a boarder is about £29,000 per year — Preceding unsigned comment added by Altechs (talk • contribs) 23:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Assess

This article is important. Can someone add some references? You need to use the ref and references tag. Then the article would be in the top 100 articles on Wikipedia. Victuallers 11:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

'The Falopian'

Are you sure this isnt vandalism? The source linked has an image which says 'The Salopian'. Another source is required to verify the claim. 84.68.229.34 (talk) 19:44, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The Falopian isn't vandalism as it is a satirical news paper published by students. The Salopian is publish by the school at the end of every term and is written by staff. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Altechs (talk • contribs) 23:31, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Rape

Nothing about John Peel being sexually abused by an older boy when he was here? Really? I know the school wouldn't appreciate it, but it's pretty significant. Mankytoes (talk) 23:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

i'm not sure this is the type of thing to put in an encyclopedia about any school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.86.146.66 (talk) 20:39, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Tittle-tattle of non encyclopedic value. One must not lose focus on: Who wants to know? --Kudpung (talk) 20:59, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Surely this is more to do with the biography of John Peel, not in the page concerning the history of Shrewsbury School? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.31.86.145 (talk) 22:10, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Of course it belongs in the article. Only someone more concerned with preserving the image of the school, would say otherwise. Spacecowboy420 (talk) 10:30, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

And on a personal note, I find it rather disgusting that the rape of a child can be dismissed as "tittle tattle" Spacecowboy420 (talk) 13:35, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

I recall reading in a Daily Mail report on the revelation that he recalled the incident taking place in a toilet in a cemetery (most likely the Shrewsbury General Cemetery in Longden Road which is in walking distance of the school), so I would omit this detail on the grounds the incident did not take place on the school's premises.Cloptonson (talk) 19:00, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Royal

At some regatta, I heard a reference to "Royal Shrewsbury School". Is that official? Ausseagull (talk) 21:59, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

technically yes it is Royal shrewsbury school. This is because it was founded by King Edward VI. However the term royal is never used, apart from use by some sports clubs within the school. Such as Rowing and Cross country. Talking of cross country i understand it possibly is the oldest running club in the world??? needs to be verified and also the old swimming pool is something like the oldest/first school swimming pool in the country. Wether this should go in the article is debatable??? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.86.146.66 (talk) 20:37, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

Old Salopians

I see Simon Dee is included here. As much of the public information about him (actually Cyril Nicholas Dodd) is untrue, we need evidence that Dee was here. (See Dee article) He may have been at Brighton College 1951-52 - no evidence yet found - so was he at Shrewsbury before this? Evidence?Sebmelmoth (talk) 16:44, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Shrewsbury: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/culture-obituaries/tv-radio-obituaries/6115121/Simon-Dee.html --Kudpung (talk) 01:19, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

The trouble with obituaries is that they are unsourced - I know, I write them myself - so repeat folklore or, as here, wishes and hopes. Surely the school knows whether Cyril Dodd was a pupil and the circumstances of his departure. Same with Brighton College. Sebmelmoth (talk) 15:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

A foolproof source to check which could make a good citation source could be the published Shrewsbury School Register, which has been published in three volumes at least (not sure what cut off year for the latest volume is).Cloptonson (talk) 14:06, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Location

The co-ordinates "52.4214°N 2.4558°W" put the school in the middle of nowhere in south Shropshire. Anyone got any better suggestions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by MyForest (talk • contribs) 00:50, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Fees and scholarships

This is strictly school brochure information which makes the Wikipedia article look like an ad. If there are no concrete objections, it will probably be removed in keeping with the style of other school articles. There are plenty of other sections that can be expanded to make the article look bigger. --Kudpung (talk) 21:05, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Fees section removed. Lead section cleaned up. Info box updated and cleaned up. References added. History looks like OR - section tagged as requiring more references. --Kudpung (talk) 01:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Alumni

Separate list of Old Salopians updated, and Alumni list on main article pruned to include living alumni. There is no point in the duplication between the two lists.--Kudpung (talk) 03:12, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Two libraries in Shrewsbury?

Are there indeed two different libraries in Shrewsbury? --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 06:43, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 13 November 2011

Please add titles and honours to the following Alumni: 1 Sir Mark Moody-Stuart 2 Michael Palin CBE 3 Baron Rees of Ludlow (not just plain Martin Rees) 4 The Rt Hon The Lord Heseltine CH PC 5 Sir John Stuttard

86.163.205.206 (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Done --Ella Plantagenet (talk) 20:50, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Darwin

Darwin, who died in 1882, is said to be alive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.80.215 (talk) 13:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't say he's alive, it just doesn't list a death date (in common with the other dead Old Salopians listed). --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:56, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure that any others in the list now are dead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.75.70 (talk) 11:17, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

... which is rather odd in itself, given the number of birthdates in the 1930s and 1940s. Perhaps being an Old Salopian confers longevity. I've now put in Darwin's death date - thank you for pointing this out. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Darwin "most famous alumnus" - POV?

The caption to Darwin's statue at the school describes him as the school's "most famous alumnus" - he was not the only Old Salopian surely of major historical interest? Should the description be deleted as POV? Fame is subjective, in the eye of the beholder; I would only use the description in the context of a quoted statement. (This is not an anti-Darwin rant.)Cloptonson (talk) 19:56, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

It would be very difficult to make a case for him not being the most famous. True there are a gaggle of very well known politicians and senior judges, etc., but you'd have to be at least prime minister to rival Darwin, and only Heseltine came close to that. Likewise Palin is exceptionally well known, but I think he'd laugh at being asked whether he or Darwin were more famous.

It would be nice to find a citation for it, but I don't think there's a big problem with it staying, even without one. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 20:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Use of old School Buildings as Library

After period of decline and following extensive restoration work, the buildings were re-opened as Shrewsbury Public Library, on Castle Hill in 1983.

This is misleading - the building had been reopened as the town's "Free Library and Museum" after the school vacated to Kingsland and continued as such, with library use as an increasing role, by the time the restoration work completed in 1983 - almost exactly 100 years on - began. I and a good deal of the Shrewsbury area public were using the library there before the work.Cloptonson (talk) 20:08, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

I have reworked that part of the paragraph on the lines indicated, cited to a booklet produced about the history and restoration of the buildings.Cloptonson (talk) 20:22, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Private School

I would suggest that Shrewsbury school be described as a private school. The description independent is vague and unclear. Wikipedia is global and most readers recognise organisations as being either public sector or private sector. 'Independent school' is an Anglocentric term and is just not a recognised term in most countries. It only serves to open up questions; independent from whom? Independen from what?

Over the last ten years most UK public sector secondary schools have converted to academies and are therefore independent. They're independent of central government and Local Education Authority control. This development has made it all the more confusing to describe private schools as independent. If you take private healthcare; go to the BUPA article and in the opening paragraph it is described as a private hospital. If private schools have private school in the opening paragraph the link takes the reader to an article that makes explicitly clear:

Private schools, also known as independent schools, non-governmental, or nonstate schools,[1] are not administered by local, state or national governments; thus, they retain the right to select their students and are funded in whole or in part by charging their students tuition, rather than relying on mandatory taxation through public (government) funding; at some private schools students may be able to get a scholarship, which makes the cost cheaper, depending on a talent the student may have (e.g. sport scholarship, art scholarship, academic scholarship), financial need, or tax credit scholarships that might be available.

That is clear, unambiguous and uneqivocal. (Garageland66 (talk) 01:27, 30 August 2016 (UTC)).

Please see discussion on Talk:Westminster School Benboy00 (talk) 19:23, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

This has been dealt with on Talk:Westminster School (Garageland66 (talk) 14:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC))

And mentioned on several other school articles' talk pages; there is a clear consensus for "independent", which is the status quo here. You should not be trying to force through your personal opinion by edit-warring, on multiple pages or on one. Chiswick Chap (talk) 18:10, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Questions

A few of the citation links (citations 11 & 12) are archived or no longer continue to function. We should find new citations to replace them. A few of the houses are also missing opening dates that I'm curious about. Dalon041 (talk) 02:39, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

@Dalon041: An okay assessment, David, but you really did not follow instructions under Week 2 of our timeline. You were supposed to ask critical questions of the post. You merely pointed out a small absence of references. Please take the time in the future to read the instructions fully before moving forward with your assignments. Alfgarciamora (talk) 11:38, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

The infoboxes for the seven historic English public schools are, at present, inconsistent. Five have the School Type listed as ‘Independent’, one has it as ‘Private’ and only one has it as ‘Public’. Can I propose that, for the sake of consistency, they all have ‘Public School’ in the infobox. They are defined as such by the 1868 Public Schools Act. Is there a consensus on this? Garageland66 (talk) 11:35, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Attitude to football - check statement

A sentence in the Football sub section begins:

While, at the beginning of the 18th century, however, the school authorities deemed football "only fit for butchers boys", an attitude common at the other public schools,..

This is cited to a source dated 2017. However, in an earlier work, Catherine Beale's book Born out of Wenlock, William Penny Brookes and the British origins of the modern Olympics (2011), page 118, the 'butchers boys' quotation is more precisely attributed to Dr Butler who began his headship in 1798, so too late for beginning of 18th century but in time for the dawn of the 19th. The only 'school authorities' in existence at that early period would have been governors and masters, Local Education Authorities did not exist until after the institution of compulsory education later in the 19th century. Deserves checking out.Cloptonson (talk) 19:16, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Robert Devereux, 2nd Earl of Essex an old boy? (section History) - check statement

I have noticed uncitated statements in this article and others, on Shrewsbury town and the 2nd Earl of Essex himself, that he attended Shrewsbury School at same period as Fulke Greville and Philip Sidney. It is not supported by his entry in Venn, which mentions no school attended prior to entering Cambridge University. I have raised a citation need in this article. A misunderstanding may have arisen in that the first headmaster of the School, Thomas Ashton, was Essex's tutor but that would have been after Ashton retired from the school headship in 1568 when Essex was two and did not become tutor until 1571.Cloptonson (talk) 12:46, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

I have now discovered that the paragraph appears to have been lifted from the main part of another paragraph in the article on Essex, without clarifying the literary circle Brooke and Sidney was formed post their school years. I have now therefore deleted all irrelevant and incorrect reference to Essex as a former pupil. Essex can also be conclusively ruled out as a former pupil because Greville and Sidney were 11 years the senior of Essex (born 1565) and attended the school between 1564 and 1568 so Essex could not have been with them!Cloptonson (talk) 06:53, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I see Pupswand has added a citation against the reinstated mention of the Earl of Essex that points to page 28 of a publication of `1888. If they can share with us what is actually stated on that page in the source, it might or might not settle the dispute. I have today checked up the articles on the Earl in both the DNB and the, more recent, ODNB article by Paul E.J. Hammer; the former does not mention Shrewsbury School or name tutors, while the latter states: His earliest known teacher was Thomas Ashton, headmaster of Shrewsbury School....Ashton was succeeded as Devereux's "scolemaster" by his protege Robert Wright, who had been a pupil at Shrewsbury... This of itself does not explicitly support the implication he was at Shrewsbury School to receive the teaching because Ashton retired from his headship in 1568. Also please note my previous comment that the age disparity between Greville and Sidney and the much younger Essex does not support the implication all three were at the school together. I did also look for any published registers, which would have had his name entered, of Shrewsbury School scholars in the Shropshire Archives but find none are earlier than the 17th century.Cloptonson (talk) 14:06, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Murgatroyd49 in the talk page on the same subject to the article on Shrewsbury (the town that is) tells me this:

The actual quote from the MS cited is as follows:

Of the high estimation in which this good man [Thomas Ashton] was held by those who

had enjoyed the benefit of his instruction, we have an interesting memorial

by one of them, Andrew Downes, who in his dedication of his Lectures on

an oration of Lysias, ed. 1595, to the celebrated and unfortunate Robert

Devereux, Earl of Essex, says : — " I was known to your Lordship at the

University. Low as was my condition, I was introduced to a nobleman of

your elevated rank by the circumstance of having received my education

from the same person who superintended your tender years, I mean Mr.

Thomas Ashton, who devoted himself to your father's service, and enjoyed

a most intimate acquaintance with your noble family.

Does not mention the school, just that Downes knew Devereux at University.

My conclusion is that the text that was brought up in citation does not support explicitly Devereux being at the School, merely :::that the two men had in common being taught by Thomas Ashton. It would be spurious for a student regardless of the college or school located to claim, for example to be an Old Etonian just because an important teacher of theirs had been previously a master at Eton. Some public schools are jealously guarding against people falsely claimed to be alumni.Pupswand, please note.Cloptonson (talk) 19:31, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Philip Sidney and George Leigh - citation and check need

I have raised a citation need against the end of this account of Philip Sidney and George Leigh, which covers the remaining part of sentence after the ellipsis:

Early pupils lodged with local families. For example, Sir Philip Sidney (who had a well-known correspondence with his father about his schooling....lodged with George Leigh (of the family of Sir Thomas Leigh), Member of Parliament for Shrewsbury.

George Leigh's article has as only citation his article in the History of Parliament but it does not mention Philip Sidney, also he was not MP for Shrewsbury in the years Sidney was a pupil at Shrewsbury (1563-68) - he had been at other times, but in meantime was MP for Ripon. Also the HOP article does not mention any kinship with Sir Thomas Leigh the Lord Mayor. My inclination is to revise the section of sentence to reflect what I have found (or perhaps should say not found).Cloptonson (talk) 10:40, 16 April 2023 (UTC)