Talk:Law and Justice

	; Archives (Index) ;
	2020/May; 2020/December; 2021/January; 2021/March; 2021/April; 2021/May; 2021/June; 2021/August; 2021/November; 2022/April; 2022/May; 2022/October; 2023/April; 2023/May; 2023/June; 2023/October; 2024/February; 2024/May;
	This page is archived by ClueBot III.

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Politics: Political parties

	Politics portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PoliticsWikipedia:WikiProject PoliticsTemplate:WikiProject Politicspolitics articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by Political parties task force (assessed as High-importance).

Poland High‑importance

	Poland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PolandWikipedia:WikiProject PolandTemplate:WikiProject PolandPoland articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Conservatism High‑importance

	Conservatism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

This article was nominated for merging with United Right (Poland) on 17 June 2020. The result of the discussion was oppose.

Far right

Can someone explain to me why, with so many academic sources,^[1] the article does not call the party far-right? What are you waiting for to do it? Hidolo (talk) 00:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Simple. Because PiS is not a far right party. We have a policy on due and undue weight. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What? According to that same Wikipedia policy that you cite, it says that if there is a majority that affirms this, it should be added to the article. Also, according to whom PIS is not a far-right party? According to you? Does there have any valid argument for throwing away all the academic sources that determine that the party is far right? You are definitely implying that what you want to do is an arbitrary conception of reality. It doesn't seem like a good action to me coming from a user who has been in Wikipedia for more than 18 years. It's a delirium. 2800:2503:101:3BD8:A600:4969:B37B:F54A (talk) 22:00, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's my comment. Hidolo (talk) 22:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not enough to quote academic sources, and primary ones on top of that. The quoted sources, ideally secondary, must reflect scholarly consensus, which certainly is not on the far-right label.

For now, the tertiary source Britannica terms PiS as "centre-right" [1]. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. That is the only one current source that described the party as centre-right. So I think it is a minority opinion. Hidolo (talk) 22:31, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That source is talking about the party in 2007 - that does not necessarily have bearing on what the party is like today. Center-right is an uncommon and unfitting label. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:45, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here are a great variety of sources which call this party far-right:

https://www.american.edu/sis/news/20231017-four-questions-about-poland-s-election-results.cfm

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/31/1222337095/in-a-year-of-gains-for-the-far-right-in-europe-poland-became-the-outlier

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/06/magazine/the-party-that-wants-to-make-poland-great-again.html

https://www.dw.com/en/polish-media-conflict-pits-government-against-far-right/a-67884162

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/19/1230673951/poland-new-government-polish-news-media

I am honestly somewhat surprised; usually it is the left on this website which has biased calls on ideology and then mobs the dissenters. JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Law and Justice is a right-wing party with centre-right and far-right elements and factions. Therefore, it's only logical to put right-wing and maybe add factions. Odideum (talk) 20:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any source? Hidolo (talk) 22:05, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also consider that being a populist party their position on political spectrum may change as those parties tend to radicalise themselves more and more. YBSOne (talk) 12:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this. This party is commonly described as such.

(and it's also kind of corrupt, but that's besides the point) JustAPoliticsNerd (talk) 02:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^
- Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.
- Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.
- Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.
- Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.
- Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.
- "Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

Add "social conservatism" to ideology.

PiS is a social conservative party, outlined by their anti LGBTQIA+ stance. Is this enough to warrant adding it to the ideology? 121.45.107.215 (talk) 01:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Populist right not economical left

Most of the sources seem to point to "welfare" and "social transfers" as if the right-wing populist party is interested in welfare and not bribing potential voters, conservative, married and multi-children. YBSOne (talk) 10:31, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is a right-wing populist party. And it is also a party that is described as "economically left-wing" or "left-leaning", so it should be reflected. And it would be hard to argue that Reuters, Centre for European Reform, the The Routledge Handbook of East European Politics or Stephen Park Turner are unreliable sources. So we simply reflect what they say, as a opinion that a fair portion of political theorists hold.

As for what would make Law and Justice unique in comparison to other right-wing populist parties, it would be that its economic orientation is something that it absorbed from a leftist party Samoobrona RP. This is something that Cédric Koch argues in Varieties of populism and the challenges to Global Constitutionalism: Dangers, promises and implications for example. "Bribing voters" seem to be your own assessment of the party, which is WP:OR, I'm afraid. Brat Forelli🦊 14:07, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

populists tend to lie about their intentions. YBSOne (talk) 14:17, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

... Like every politician. That's WP:OR. We rely on sources and what they explicitly say, and not our own interpretations/conclusions from them. Brat Forelli🦊 17:35, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

not every politician is a populist. There are politicians that care for welfare for the people's sake. I think that this is just a copy paste from far-right rulebook to call an inconvenient right-wing party a "left-wing" (see how many times this article was messed with) or at least "economically left-wing" to distance themselves from other failed right-wing populist parties. That's my opinion. YBSOne (talk) 19:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] 
Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.
Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.
Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.
Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.
Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.
"Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

[2] Forchtner, Bernhard (2019-09-10). The Far Right and the Environment: Politics, Discourse and Communication. Routledge. ISBN 978-1-351-10402-9.

[3] Vieten, Ulrike M.; Poynting, Scott (2022-09-26). Normalization of the Global Far Right: Pandemic Disruption?. Emerald Group Publishing. ISBN 978-1-83909-956-4.

[4] Dorling, Danny (2019-01-15). Rule Britannia: Brexit and the End of Empire. Biteback Publishing. ISBN 978-1-78590-456-1.

[5] Alexander, Jeffrey C.; Kivisto, Peter; Sciortino, Giuseppe (2020-12-03). Populism in the Civil Sphere. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-4475-2.

[6] Ayoub, Phillip M.; Stoeckl, Kristina (2024-06-18). The Global Fight Against LGBTI Rights: How Transnational Conservative Networks Target Sexual and Gender Minorities. NYU Press. ISBN 978-1-4798-2481-6.

[7] "Analysis | Poland's in crisis again. Here's what you should know about the far right's latest power-grab". Washington Post. 2021-12-07. ISSN 0190-8286. Retrieved 2024-05-23.

[1]