Talk:Brazilian Portuguese

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Same language; not a "dialect"

Brazilian Portuguese is one of the several variants of the Portuguese Language, it is not a "dialect", as mentioned in the text.

The Portuguese Language is officially a single language composed of several variants from Portugal, Mozambique, Angola, Cape Verde, São Tomé and Principe, Guiné Bissau, East Timor, and Brazil.

All these countries have Portuguese as their official language. None of them have any difficulty whatsoever understanding each other in written communication - the grammar and the spelling is almost entirely the same, except for a few spelling variations that are mutually agreed upon in an international treaty and are irrelevant for anyone's understanding of a text ("acção", in Portugal, and "ação", without a "c", in Brazil).

The main differences lie in pronunciation and in choices and meanings of some words, but these differences DO NOT constitute or make up a different language, nor are they enough to make a dialect. No linguists or gramaticians consider any of the variations of the Portuguese language used in the countries listed before "dialects" - thus, anyone who does so does it out of his own prejudice or personal opinion, without scientific backing or sources, in oposition to the conclusions of specialists and the academia.

It should also be noted that anyone claiming that the Brazilian variation of the Portuguese Language is a "dialect" is indirectly claming that there is a "correct", "proper" or "original/unmodified" version of the language in Portugal. However, scientific evidence shows that the Portuguese language in Portugal also underwent change and is not "standard" or the "original" form of the language that others must copy.

In many ways, the Portuguese used in Brazil is older than its variant from Portugal. Here are two examples:

1) The "gerund" or "progressive" form of verbs: in the year 1500, when Portuguese navigator Pero Vaz Caminha announced the discovery of Brazil to the King of Portugal, he wrote "Em se plantando tudo dá" (anything that is planted will grow); the word "plantando" is written in its progressive form (ending with "ndo"); yet, the current citizens of Portugal insist that their shorter form of progressive verbs ("a fazer") is more correct, even though it was adopted in Portugal only in the XIX Century, under the influence of the French language;

2) Luís de Camões, the poet that symbolizes the Portuguese Language, who lived in the XVI Century, wrote Decasyllabic quatrains (poems with 10 syllables) that can not be read correctly using today's pronounciation of Portuguese in Portugal, which has been progressively eliminating vowels in words. By doing so, whole syllables are removed and words such as "pelotão" (platoon) are shortened to "plutão" (Pluto, the planet); Brazilian Portuguese and the Portuguese of most African Portuguese do not eliminate vowels.

My purpose here is not to criticize European Portuguese. What I do mean to say is that all versions of the Portuguese language underwent change and are current versions of a common language of the past which does not exist anywhere in its pure original form.

To make things short: it is wrong and prejudiced to call Brazilian Portuguese a "dialect"; it should be noted, as well, that 212 million people speak this so called "dialect", while the whole population of Portugal is 10 million. Abueno97 (talk) 00:00, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Historically, the word "dialect" has been used to mean "inferior to the standard". But in linguistics (and this article is about linguistics), it's used to describe a version of a language spoken in a defined area (regional or national), that has particular standard characteristics: so UK English and US English are both "dialects of English" (among others), without either one being "inferior" to the other; and the same applies to Portuguese (although I know a lot of Portuguese people who would disagree!). Morrisonneil12 (talk) 03:44, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Infobox

I took out the language infobox from the article because i thought i was only for languages, but i read the documentation of that template, and i saw it is for dialects also. My action was reC)

Loss of certain plural marking traits as a typical phenomenon in the informal spoken register

In the description of the informal spoken register, there have been some attempts to change "os elevador" to "os elevadores" as if the lack of plural marker in nouns were uncommon or rare in informal spoken Brazilian Portuguese. Such phenomenon may even be stigmatized (as typical marks of informal spoken registers often are), but this does not mean it does not happen often. In fact, it is very common and widespread in Brazilian Portuguese. To back this affirmation, I added a citation from a reliable source to the article.

I can cite even more sources that reinforce that affirmation if you want. But do not change "os elevador" to "os elevadores" unless you are backed up by authoritative citations from reliable sources indicating that this is not a noteworthy characteristic of the informal spoken register of Brazilian Portuguese. --Antonielly (talk) 15:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Section "Tu and você" must be changed

This section has wrong information and is completely centered on what is common in the standard dialect of São Paulo. In most of Northeast, "tu" is the informal pronoun, "você" the semi-formal one and "o senhor/a senhora" the formal one. On the contrary of the text, "você" isn't preferred in any part of the Northeast, except for parts of Bahia and other smaller areas. The same happens in other parts of the country.

In the South, "tu" is entirely dominant, "você" is little used. The form "contigo" and "ti" is actually the most common one in many dialects of Brazil, especially in Northeast, South and North (but also parts of Southeast). So, it's time this section gets a little less "São Paulo-ish" and starts to consider all the dialects of Brazil when it's going to determine whether some form is or not the most common one. The pronunciation guide also leads one to believe [tSi] is THE form to be used in BP, while there are still quite a lot of dialects in Brazil that use [ti]. 189.13.30.6 (talk) 00:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Strange example of informal speech

The following example of informal speech is way too exaggerated, as if it intended to turn differences between formal BP and informal BP much larger than they are. It simply replaces a verb that is extremely common in informal BP (precisar) with a synonym that is also common (ter que). The fact is: there is nothing formal about "precisamos" and nothing informal in "tem que". Both are actually totally correct in formal BP and totally common in informal BP! Besides, the expression "faltar energia" is extremely common in informal BP, it has no sign of formality at all. It's true, Brazilians would also tend to say "vai faltar luz", but this expression isn't wrong at all in the standard BP. The analytic future conjugation "vai faltar" is totally accepted in formal Portuguese. So, it's informal, but it's also formal. "Vai faltar luz" is acceptable and correct for formal standards.

Therefore, the fact is: the difference between formal and informal BP isn't that big as it seems in this example. Actually, in many BP dialects where "nós" is still used commonly together with "a gente", it'd be perfectly possible to hear an informal frase this way (for example, in the Ceará dialect:

"Nós precisamo informar todo mundo que vai faltar energia nos elevador" [nOjs prisi'z3mu i~foh'ma todu mu~du ki vaj faw'ta eneh'Zi3 nuz ElEva'do]

On the other hand, it's perfectly possible to write in formal BP in this following way:

"Nós temos que falar para todos que vai faltar luz nos elevadores" (compare with the given informal example "A gente tem que falar pra todo o mundo que vai faltar luz nos elevador")

Is it clear??? :-)

P.S.: The correct form, even in informal BP, is "todo mundo" (everybody), NOT "todo o mundo" (all the world). 189.13.30.6 (talk) 00:35, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

---

I agree with you on most things. There are wide stylistical differences between formal and informal registers of BP (vocabulary selection ["preferred words" between a set of synonyms to represent an idea, definition of "neutral" lexical choices], preferred sentence organization patterns, prosody, phonological realization, etc.), but the grammatical and lexical differences between informal and formal BP is far from being so big as many people claim. Just some remarks:

• You do not need to mark in the orthography the difference between "precisamos" and "precisamo". It is just a phonological ellision that occurs on many Brazilian dialects, which does not need to be represented in spelling. The same thing happens with final "r" in infinitive verbs such as "cantar" ("cantá") and "beber" ("bebê"). There is a one-to-one alignment between graphemes ("s"/"r") and phonemes (the null phoneme) in these cases. The same cannot be said about the lack of plural agreement in nouns (as you have correctly observed).

• "Falar" can be, among other things, a synonym of "dizer" in informal BP, but AFAIK not in standard BP. Thus "falar algo p(a)ra alguém" is "dizer algo para alguém" in formal BP. But "falar inglês" is covered by both formal and informal BP.

• Both "todo mundo" and "todo o mundo" are correct in the sense of "everybody". See:
  • todo o mundo = toda a gente (lit. all the world = all the people) -- notice that the article is kept in both "todo O mundo" and "toda A gente".
  • todo mundo = toda pessoa (lit. every world = every person). "Todo mundo" = "todos os mundos (que existem)" = "todos".

So, in this case, I think it would be better to write "todo (o) mundo" in the example to indicate the optionality of the definite article.

Maybe the best solution for our Wikipedia article would be to have some examples instead of artificially coining just one sentence that includes every possible informal feature from BP. Some preliminary suggestions:

• Todos vocês são doidos!
• '(O)cês é tudo doido!

-

• Disseram-me que todos estão com medo de nós.
• Me falaram que todo (o) mundo 'tá com medo da gente.

-

• Não há troco.
• Tem troco não.

-

• Vocês foram ao banco hoje?
• '(O)cês foi (lá) no banco hoje?

-

• Você aí, pegue-a para mim!
• Você aí, pega ela pra mim!

-

• Deixa-me ver isto.
• Deixa eu ver isso (aqui).

-

• Ele a fez comer tudo.
• Ele fez ela comer tudo.

-

• Como que você pôde me abandonar?
• Como que 'ocê pôde abandonar eu?

-

• Ele disse para eu fazer isso.
• Ele falou pra mim fazer isso.

-

• Que coisas são essas?
• Ques coisa é essa?

-

• Vem a mim!
• Vem ne mim! ("ne" = "em", a back-formation of no and na when you remove the article present in the contraction. Remember the music "Pinga ni mim", where people write "ni" because non-standard words are popularly written with a greater compliance to actual pronunciation than to consistency with the standard ortographical system, where such non-standard word would be more properly written ne. See also the next example.)

-

• Eu confio em vocês."
• Eu confio n'ocês.

-

• Ele pegou o carro de vocês emprestado?
• Ele pegou o carro d'ocês emprestado?

-

• Isto é para vocês.
• Isso (aqui) é p'r'ocês.

-

• Vou com você.
• Vou co'cê.

There could also be some good example highlighting the mixture of "'(o)cê" and "te".

What do you think? --Antonielly (talk) 10:16, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

FALAR

The verb FALAR is normally used in oral and literal Brazilian Portuguese, there are numerous examples in Brazilian literature, even in descriptive (non-dialogue) parts. It is the older usage that persisted in Brazil. According to Aurélio dictionary FALAR for DIZER is not necessary informal, it is a Brazilianism, but excepted in all but highly formal Portuguese (as in laws). It's not informal. It's general Brazilian Portuguese. No Brazilian says DIZER VERDADE, this is a Lusitanism, Brazilian usage is '"FALAR (A) VERDADE. Get your facts straight. Aurélio dictionary is on my side.

14. Bras. Angol. Cabo-verd. Guin. Moç. Santom. Dizer, declarar: Falou que vinha à festa. 15. Bras. Proferir, dizer; costumar dizer: "Não falava'senhora', dizia 'madame' " (Waldemar Versiani dos Anjos, Jornal de Serra Verde, p. 96).

---

Thanks for your excellent remarks. The problem with emphasizing that that or that verb is preferred in formal speech is that, in the english Wikipedia, which will be read by English speakers and other foreigners, we mustn't convey false impressions about Portuguese. "Informar" isn't formal BP, it is Portuguese, period. Every Brazilian uses this verb, though not as often as "dizer" and "falar" (actually, the fact that "to speak" is more common than "to inform" is true in every language in the world).

Your examples are good, but then there's always a big problem with creating examples of informal BP: some informal usages are restricted to an area. The only forms of informal BP that do represent all the country's dialects are among others: lack of plural "s" when there is already an article or other reference before the noun/adjective (for example, informal BP will always say "Mulheres fazem isso toda hora", but always "As mulher faz(em) isso toda hora"; use of proclisis in all cases; lack of 2nd person conjugation (with the exception of parts of Pernambuco and South); lack of 3rd person object pronouns ("eu vi ele" and not "eu o vi"); and some others.

And the references in other specific sections MUST be corrected: the "tu/você" section says "contigo" is little used in Brazil, when in fact it IS the most frequent form in almost all Brazil.

In you examples, I can cite as regionalisms (mostly related to Minas or Goiás, am I right??):

1) VOCÊ: All the examples given in the article are with "você", when it's a fact that at least 1/3 of Brazilians prefer using "tu" in informal speech. That happens as a major usage in the Northeast, in the North, in the South and in poorer classes of Rio de Janeiro - a huge part of Brazil.

2) OCÊ: it's a regionalism, it doesn't represent informal BP. In other parts of Brazil, what predominates is "você" or "cê", but not "ocê" (and that when "tu" isn't by far the preferred form).

3) NE/NI MIM: it's used only in Center-West and Minas, as far as I know. In Northeast and other regions people never say that.

4) N'OCÊ, D'OCÊS: again, only in Center-West, Minas and nearer regions, but not in the rest of the country.

5) QUES COISA SÃO ESSA: again, only in Minas and nearer areas.

6) LACK OF PLURAL VERB CONJUGATION: it happens as a major usage in some parts, but in many parts of the country even among poor classes it's not that frequent as to let us say it "characterizes informal BP". In Ceará and, I suppose, in many parts of the country, most probably a poor person would say "Eles comero" or even the formal "Eles comeram".

So, my suggestion is: let's simply make a reference to the various usages of Brazilian dialects, perhaps including some typical examples (as "n'ocês" characterizes the Mineiro dialect, frequent change of /v/ into /h/ in Cearense dialect, etc.). As for informal BP itself, let's simply say the really important differences, not exaggerating the differences, because in fact informal BP is very, very similar to formal BP. I think the differences don't appear in even 5% of the grammar or vocabulary. 189.13.30.6 (talk) 20:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh my god, another exaggeration

Definite article before a possessive

The following section also has claims that don't correspond to reality:

In EP, a definite article normally accompanies a possessive when it comes before a noun: este é o meu gato 'this is my cat'. Notheastern BP dialects drop the definite article and leave the possessive alone: esse é meu gato. In Southeastern speech, especially in the standard dialects of the cities of São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, the definite article is normally used as in Portugal. Formal written BP tends however to omit the definite article in accordance with prescriptive grammar rules derived from classical Portuguese.

I can't speak about the other regions, but what is said about Northeastern BP simply isn't true. Now, it's correct that Northeasterns tend to prefer dropping the definite article, but it's not a rule and, actually, saying "este é o meu gato" or "o meu gato é este" is very common, albeit perhaps not the preferred form. I think the same applies for every other region in Brazil: some form may be the most frequent, but in no way the other usage is dropped.

And, finally, there is no prescriptive grammar rule that requires the omition of the definite article. Both forms are entirely correct and are formal BP. However, the classical texts prefer to omit it, though the other form is also correct. It's a matter of preference, of status, I'd say.189.13.30.6 (talk) 21:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Reflexive pronoun - Wrong information

This affirmation is entirely wrong: Thus, for example, BP would often say ele lembra ("he remembers") instead of ele se lembra'. "Lembrar" can or not require a reflexive pronoun, there are two forms. Most of the cases in which BP drops the reflexive pronoun are just the same way: there are two accepted forms, which are entirely correct and traditional. Actually, BP sometimes does the opposite: the verb "casar", which originally doesn't require the reflexive pronoun "se", is almost always treated as "casar-se" ("ela se casou" instead of "ela casou"). As for the verb "deitar", it's not enough to justify the existence of that section, which I think should be deleted. I will do it. If you think it's necessary, please tell me. YgorCoelho (talk) 02:57, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

--- You offer no quotations. Milton Azevedo in his book Portuguese language - a Linguistic Introduction states:

7.3.2.4 The vanishing reflexive

...Some verbs are conjugated with a reflexive clitic that does not denote a truly reflexive action that has the subject as both actor and patient), e.g. levantar-se ‘to get up,’ sentar-se ‘to sit down,’ lembrar-se (de) ‘to remember,’ esquecer-se (de) ‘to forget,’ queixar-se ‘to complain’ (4.6). In BP such verbs occur without a clitic, as in 32a–32c. Omission of the clitic may be compensated for by a different construction, as in 32d, where the verb ficar combined with the participle stands for preocupar-se ‘to worry.’

(32) a. Não quer entrar e sentar? (st. se sentar). ‘Don’t you want to come in and sit down?’ // b. Eu esqueci de trazer a pastinha (st. me esqueci). ‘I forgot to bring the folder.’ // c. Eu não agüento, ela queixa demais (st. se queixa). ‘I can’t stand it, she complains too much.’ // d. Não precisa ficar preocupado com isso (st. se preocupar). ‘Don’t worry about that.’ //

Research has shown not only that reflexive clitics are rare in the vernacular, but also that speakers of this variety do not find it easy to understand clitics when they hear them (Veado 1982:45; Bortoni-Ricardo 1985:227). Loss of awareness of the function of the clitic accounts for the vernacular tendency to amalgamate the pronoun se with the infinitive, as in 33a. This feature, however, occurs more than just sporadically in colloquial educated speech, as in 33b. This vernacular feature also occurs in popular EP (Mota 2001:32).

partial quotation from, Portuguese language - a Linguistic Introduction written by Milton M. Azevedo (Cambridge University Press, 2004.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.0.227.26 (talk) 11:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, the fact this is an excerpt from a book doesn't matter if the information is clearly wrong for any Brazilian native speaker. Perhaps the phenomenon does exist, but the examples given are simply wrong. The fact is: millions of Brazilians everyday use "Eu me lembro", "Vixe, me esqueci do recado", "Ele ainda tá se queixando de dor nas costa", etc. The verbs "lembrar", "queixar" and "esquecer" are definitely used with "se" extensively, though the other forms, without clitic, are also common. Now "sentar" is a good example of the disuse of reflexive clitic "se" (and their counterparts), but "me sento" or "se senta" is still quite frequent nonetheless. Actually, I have never heard "queixar" instead of "queixar-se", I mean, never. "Eu queixo de dor de dente" instead of "Eu me queixo de dor de dente"? I'm sorry, but no linguists at all can convince me of something that I, a native speaker, never heard in the informal speech. The fact is reflexive clitics are still very common in BP, especially in the verbs "lembrar" and "esquecer", and the other forms have existed for centuries and are even considered "right" by the standard, traditional grammar, with minor differences (without the clitic it requires direct object, with that it requires the preposition "de").YgorCoelho (talk) 17:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Please remember that Brazil is a huge country and Brazilian Portuguese is not restricted only to your native dialect. I assure you that in Goiás people often speak without the clitic pronoun "se" when using verbs such as "lembrar" and "esquecer" (although they also use the "se" and its ommision in "free variation", i.e., it is optional in relaxed informal speech). As to various examples of the use of the verb "queixar" that (probably accidentally) have left orality marks in writing, see the following results found in a simple Google search (key expression: "estou queixando"): [1][2][3]. Moreover, remember that a core Wikipedia policy is Verifiability, not truth, so it does not matter if an editor thinks something is true or not, it only matters whether a piece of information (which is controversial or not) is verifiable in a reputable source. --Antonielly (talk) 22:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Right, but once my native dialect (actually, not only mine, since I have had close contact with both Cearense and Pernambucano dialects) uses clitics, then all the hypothesis about a disappearement of clitics is destroyed. The author themself was probably fooled by the fact that Brazil is so huge that nearly every phenomenon can't represent the whole ammount of dialects that form Brazilian Portuguese. Just remember what many authors, including some very reputable ones, say about "você": they say it's disappearing in Brazil and that "tu" is in disuse, especially because they're mostly from São Paulo-Rio, but it's very easy to verify that "tu" is still common - in fact, most common - in a huge part of the country inhabited by 70 million people or so. Wikipedia must have verifiable texts, but it cannot also ommit facts that are widespread and can be easily verified by someone who lives in a given country and were perhaps forgotten by a reknown but even so failable author.

As for "queixar", a search in Google (http://www.google.com.br/search?q=%22estou+queixando%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:pt-BR:official&client=firefox-a) shows that the overwhelming majority of the examples of "estou queixando" are actually accompanied by the clitic. The phenomenon does exist, but it can't be used as a sign of disappearence of the clitics. The same can be said about "lembrar": in Google "eu lembro" has 834,000 results (and several of them are actually part of "eu lembro-me", while "eu me lembro" has 1,130,000 results and "lembro-me" 1,260,000. Now "esquecer": "eu esqueço" gives us 87,800 results, while "eu me esqueço" has 32,300 results and "esqueço-me", 2,790; and, finally, "sentar": "eu sento" has 54,000 results and "eu me sento", 28,700. So, what we can see is a preference for not using the clitic, except for "lembrar", but in no way does it indicate that "reflexive clitics are rare in the vernacular" or that they are "vanishing". And remember that in Internet most Brazilians write in informal speech. There is, as you said, a FREE VARIATION: both use with and without the reflexive, and that seems to have happened for centuries in the Portuguese language, albeit nowadays without respecting the rule that with "se" the object must be indirect.

189.13.24.51 (talk) 03:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

British & American English = No Comparison

As a linguist who is fluent in Portuguese, English and other languages, I have to state that the different between Brazilian Portuguese and Portuguese of Portugal is far more extreme of that of Great Britian and the United States. Some examples of English: Centre and Center - spelled different yet prounounced exactly the same. In Portuguese: Actor and Ator (meaning actor)- missing a complete consonant sounding! Brazil has many extremes like this compared to Portugal. Sister Makemore (talk) 18:44, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Bad example. In European Portuguese, the letter "c" in the word "actor" is mute, like "h" in "hospital". The presence/absence of that "c" is just a spelling difference between BP and EP, which is set to disappear as soon as the ortographic agreement of CPLP will be put into action. (By the way, the "a" in "a(c)tor" is open in Brazil and closed in Portugal, but both sounds are allophones in Portuguese and that is just a dialectal difference in the pronunciation of a given grapheme.) I lived in both countries, so I am personally acquainted with various dialects and regional variations in both countries. --Antonielly (talk) 01:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

And I would have to say that the notion that British and American English pronounce Centre/Center (regardless of the spelling) "exactly the same" can only be based on the pronunciation of very atypical speakers. The drastically different treatment of postvocalic "r", if nothing else, sets the predominant pronunciations on either side of the Atlantic distinctly apart. --Haruo (talk) 21:53, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm British, I learned Portuguese in Lisbon and I've been living with a Brazilian in Barcelona for almost seven years: and I agree... I think it's the fact that Portuguese morphology is obvious much more complex than in English (morphology barely exists). Something like 'tu fá-lo-ás' wouldn't get you very far in Brazil.

And then there are some of the lexical differences: imagine the look on people's faces in Brazil if you innocently pointed out that "a rapariga entrou na bicha". I can't think of anything similar between US and UK English with such "everyday words". I've been visited Portugal with said Brazilian, and I sometimes had to "translate" what waiters were saying (= say it in a Brazilian accent). It's maybe like how a lot of Americans can struggle with a strong Scottish accent. 79.152.93.42 (talk) 04:13, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Antonielly, who claims to have lived in Portugal, incorrectly states that the "a" in "a(c)tor" is closed (or reduced) in Portugal. I am Portuguese and I can attest to the fact that that "a" is normally open: I have never heard it pronounced otherwise by any native speaker of European Portuguese, although it should be obvious that I cannot possibly claim that all such speakers pronounce it so, unlike Antonielly, who seems to be fond of making statements with the impossible pretension to being universally true. Furthermore, the letter "c" in the Portuguese European word "actor", which Antonielly claims to be mute, is actually a part of an "ac" digraph, which, in European Portuguese has manifold functions, including that of indicating that a pre-tonic vowel is NOT reduced (i.e., it is open), as is the case in the word in question. In light of this, one has to conclude that Antonielly displays a fundamental lack of comprehension of European Portuguese phonology and orthography. --Pedro da Silva Coelho, Porto, Portugal

Almost two different languages?

Modern linguistics studies normally suggest that spoken Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese are deeply distinct when grammar is considered. In fact, spoken BP has deeply different syntatical system from EP, as discussed by Charlotte Galves, 2001. One of the most dramatical differences is that BP shows strong traits of topic-proeminent language whereas EP is a subject-proeminent language, as presented by Eunice Pontes, 1987. Moreover it's not a pro-drop language as EP and its pronoun system is quite different, having abolished most of the oblique pronouns.

Some authors (such as Mário Perini, 1997) tend to suggest the existence two separate languages - vernacular Brazilian versus European Portuguese. Standard written BP is a little closer to EP than to vernacular Brazilian, hiding most of the differences for a casual observer and thus suggesting a somewhat artificial unity.

I'm sure that it's not Wikipedia's job to raise polemics, but present the most accepted positions. Nevertheless, it would be a little more factual to present BP and EP as two different systems, with some distance in their grammatical systems, as it's widely recognized in academy.

José San Martin (talk) 14:31, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

It woldn't be "more factual", especially since the article has is already has to much on that given the scant or non-existent examples. All that there is are very vague (and highly technical) proposition that lacks any substantial support. If they are different languages I would like for someone to put some examples of it, ideally URLs to sound or video clips. Must be quite easy.

PS: I would have nothing against it BTW, it would even have some quite decent side-effects. But this is not about personal opinions.--213.58.131.130 (talk) 12:24, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the above comment. As it is the article already spends way to much time on this subject compared to the "weight" of it. Furthermore the issue isn't even about BP and EP: if the "two different languages" theory is to be considered then there are two different languages used in Brazil itself, given the very simple fact that every news report, every television show, every newspaper and pretty much everything that exists is in the "Brazilian EP", if one were to use the criteria of those authors. Those that agree can simply post relevant examples of it (which are, as the above comment indicates, conspicuously lacking...) It's a bit ridiculous to read an entire article or book about how the languages are different where every single sentence is correct Portuguese, or to hear an interview where every spoken word is correct

Portuguese.--85.138.209.64 (talk) 23:26, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

People seem to lack a certain context and sense of proportion, by both inflating differences that are hard or impossible for a regular speaker to understand (i.e. after two paragraphs of lengthy linguistics-jargon charged that read like something very serious the final example is something minuscule and more often than not not even consistently true when applied to the several different variants within Brazil and Portugal itself) and also by judging it to be something "quite different" from American and English (someone above made quite a fuss about this, only to use an example where both words are read the same). To put some perspective:

"...This doctrine, of course, is not supported by the known laws of language, nor has it prevented the large divergences that we shall presently examine, but all the same it has worked steadily toward a highly artificial formalism, and as steadily against the investigation of the actual national speech. Such grammar, so-called, as is taught in our schools and colleges, is a grammar standing four-legged upon the theorizings and false inferences of English Latinists of a past generation, 2 eager only to break the wild tongue of Shakespeare to a rule; and its frank aim is to create in us a high respect for a book language which few of us ever actually speak and not many of us even learn to write. That language, elaborately artificial though it may be, undoubtedly has merits. It shows a sonority and a stateliness that you must go to the Latin of the Golden Age to match; its “highly charged and heavy-shotted” periods, in Matthew Arnold’s phrase, serve admirably the obscurantist purposes of American pedagogy and of English parliamentary oratory and leader-writing; it is something for the literary artists of both countries to prove their skill upon by flouting it. But to the average American, bent upon expressing his ideas, not stupendously but merely clearly, it must always remain something vague and remote, like Greek history or the properties of the parabola, for he never speaks it or hears it spoken, and seldom encounters it in his everyday reading. If he learns to write it, which is not often, it is with a rather depressing sense of its artificiality. He may master it as a Korean, bred in the colloquial Onmun, may master the literary Korean-Chinese, but he never thinks in it or quite feels it."

[...]That, even to the lay Continental, American and English now differ considerably, is demonstrated by the fact that many of the popular German Sprachführer appear in separate editions, Amerikanisch and Englisch. This is true, for example, of the “Metoula-Sprachführer” 46 and of the “Polyglott Kuntze” books. 47 The American edition of the latter starts off with the doctrine that “Jeder, der nach Nord-Amerika oder Australien will, muss Englisch können,” but a great many of the words and phrases that appear in its examples would be unintelligible to most Englishmen[...]All the Continental Europeans who discuss the matter seem to take it for granted that American and English are now definitely separated. When I was in Germany as a correspondent, in 1917, I met many German officers who spoke English fluently. Some had learned it in England and some in America, and I noted that they were fully conscious of the difference between the two dialects, and often referred to it. M. Clemenceau, who acquired a very fluent and idiomatic English during his early days in New York, is always at pains to inform those who compliment him upon it that it is not English at all, but American. The new interest in American literature in France, growing out of the establishment of a chair of American Literature and Civilization at the Sorbonne, with Charles Cestre as incumbent, has brought forth several articles upon the peculiarities of American in the French reviews.

[Menken, The American Language].

Wow, talk about diglosia! Were have I read this before, complete with the "what they taught in school is a different language" and "foreigners already thing it's a different language"? Actually the rest of the book explores the same arguments I keep seeing being raised in this article, to an extent where occupy a ridiculous amount of the article length compared with the tiny influence and support that they have... and you want it to be even more expanded? As for the systems and "distance" of the grammatical structures, it's referenced in the article. Just like it is in other languages.--83.132.170.210 (talk) 01:05, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarify existential "ter"

The article says:

BP also uses ter in existential sense, whereas EP would use haver, hence "não tem dinheiro" ("it has no money") in addition to "não há dinheiro" ("there is no money").

The translations to English are too literal. I don't know Portuguese well (yet :) but i suppose that the proper English translation in both cases is "There is no money". Can someone please clarify it?

Thanks in advance. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

That's right. In both cases the meaning is "There is no money". I think the text should clarify that, literally, "ter" means "to have", but not in that situation. That sentence can't mean "it has no money", because in fact "não tem dinheiro" is a case of sentence without object, what happens in many cases in Portuguese, what is analogous to the non-existence of subject when using "haver". 189.13.71.177 (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

This is yet another "difference" that I fail to understand as such: both forms are used in EP. The sentences convey subtly different ideas, or at least different ways to express the same idea using different constructs: "Ele não tem dinheiro/Eu não tenho dinheiro" means "He has no money/I have no money", whereas "Não há dinheiro" is used for example in the following context: "Tive que deixar o ginásio... não há dinheiro", which could be translated has "I had to leave the gymn [membership]... there is no money". This isn't used in English, but it transmits a more general "lack of money" not directly attached to a subject except by context. In this example it could be substituted by "não tenho dinheiro", and more often than not it is. When an ATM machine doesn't have money the most common way of saying it is indeed "Não tem dinheiro" in EP. If no ATM machine in the city had money then "Não há dinheiro" would be used. Again, I fail to understand the difference in usage, and the example should either be corrected or the whole thing deleted, since it makes little sense. --85.138.209.64 (talk) 23:17, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

The examples you gave don't show the usage of the verb "haver" in expressions which indicate existence. When one says "Não tem dinheiro" in the same way you said, it's just a case of "sujeito oculto" (hidden subject), as Portuguese is a pro-drop language. The so called "haver" meaning existence is another thing: it's not a case of dropping the subject, but actually the nonexistent subject that happens in Portuguese in many situations. So, what is particular of Brazilian Portuguese is the use of "ter" replacing "haver" in expressions of existence, where there is no subject at all: "Não tem ninguém aqui" (There isn't anybody here). Let me clarify it: you may say "Não tem dinheiro" referring to a person you've mentioned before, so the real meaning in English is "He has no money"; AND you may say "Não tem dinheiro" as a Brazilian uses it, meaning simply "There is no money", without referring to anyone, and in Portuguese grammar it configures a nonexistent subject (notice that, if you use the subject in the plural, the verb remains the same in the singular: "Não tem pessoas aqui", for example) - and this form replaces the traditional "Não há dinheiro" (in Latin, "habere" also meant "to have").YgorCoelho (talk) 19:39, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

The MOST SERIOUS problem of this article

In my opinion, the most serious problem of this article is that it describes two things which should be in separate articles:

1. A characterization of Brazilian Portuguese;
2. A description of the differences between Brazilian Portuguese and European Portuguese.

The first one is the raison d'être of this article, therefore it should remain. But the second one should be transferred to a new article.

My suggestion is that it shall be entitled Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese (on the model of Differences between Spanish and Portuguese or American and British English differences).

This article (Brazilian Portuguese), however, should keep describing the differences between informal Brazilian Portuguese and formal Brazilian Portuguese, since both belong to the sphere of "Brazilian Portuguese". But all the other content should be transferred to the Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese article, which should be put under the Category:Language comparison (among other categories).

The currently giant length of this article and the lack of coherence ("bipolar disorder") in the text are in a great part caused by the conflation of those two different topics under a single article. Therefore, I strongly recommend a split. What do you think? --Antonielly (talk) 15:49, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Be careful! You may be opening the doors for pages such as Differences between Angolan and European Portuguese, Differences between Cape Verdean and Mozambican Portuguese, and so on. Ten Islands (talk) 12:56, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I am talking about standard dialects here. The two major standard dialects of Portuguese are Brazilian and European. Something similar happens in English: the two major standard dialects are American and British. Angolan Portuguese and Mozambican Portuguese, for instance, do not currently have prestigious standard dialects of their own; their written literary standards are rooted on standard European Portuguese. There is no significative literature of prescriptive treatises of "standard Indian English" either.

I would find it unlikely that someone would create an acceptable article about Differences between Jamaican English and South African English, especially because it would be difficult to find sources to support the article, and therefore the article could be removed on the basis of WP:OR. But there are a lot of references that describe differences between Standard American English and Standard British English, and there are a lot of references that describe differences between Standard Brazilian Portuguese and Standard European Portuguese, therefore the descriptions of those differences are notable subjects. --Antonielly (talk) 13:24, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

But there's a problem: many statements would have to be repeated. I mean, the sentences dedicated to the differences between BP and EP are mostly describing, at the same tipe, characteristics of BP. I don't think it's necessary to split the article, but rather to emphasize more, in this article, the characteristics of BP, and then only add "this has a different usage in EP" or "unlike BP". Or perhaps, if you see no problem, we would repeat a great part of the information of the article, for example, writing twice that there are two pronunciations of /ti/ and /ti/ in BP, one palatalized and the other not, and then repeating it again in the article about differences between BP and EP (i.e. "Many Brazilian dialects tend to palatalize /ti/ and /di/, while it doesn't happen in EP")...YgorCoelho (talk) 06:59, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there will be a bit of overlap, but not very much. I do not think a bit of duplication would be a relevant issue. Moreover, the article about EP does not mention characteristics of BP (and correctly so) as much as the article about BP (currently and unnecessarily) mentions characteristics of EP. This asymmetry of presentation does not make sense: both dialects have a common origin in XVI century EP; modern BP does not have its origins on modern EP, nor vice versa; the article about EP is about EP, not about its differences with respect to BP; the article about BP should primarily be about BP, not about its differences with respect to EP. A contrastive analysis should be the subject of a new article, since it is a different subject than what is proposed by the title of the article.

I agree with you that after a split the article about BP would suffer a major rewriting to suit to its only purpose (description of BP). This will involve a lot of work, but this is common in Wikipedia; the article does not currently have enough quality to be kept stable anyway (and I say that as someone who has contributed to it). I suggest that, after the split, the 3 articles BP, EP and Portuguese language would each have a section that quickly summarizes the differences between standard BP and standard EP (from the point of view of each respective article), and near the section header there would be a template {{main|Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese}}.

I think that, after the split, the BP article will shrink in size, and that is very good: it is currently huge (73KB). There will be only one description (standard BP) and one comparison involved (standard BP X informal spoken register of BP), rather than 3 (!!!) comparisons (if we also consider the current lengthy sections about informal spoken BP X standard EP) and one full description. The resulting article will still be very big (unfortunately), but it will be smaller than the current version. 15 sections is too much for just one article about one dialect. Even the article Portuguese language has fewer sections than the article about BP.

I am concerned with improving the quality of the article. The first step to achieve this improvement would be to make the text more focused in its purpose by splitting the article; then the next steps would come. Splitting is just a first step in a chain of changes for this article to reach at least a "Very Good" status, or maybe even FA status in the future (if we are dedicated enough to improve it and cite a greater amount of reputable sources). --Antonielly (talk) 11:40, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Another problem is that much of the article's information is outdated. After a recent orthographic agreement, all spelling in either dialect of Portuguese has been equalized. The article should at least remove the old differences (i.e. acção vs ação) before a move is even, if at all, attempted. TheUnixGeek (talk) 20:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

It is not a move, but a split. Nobody said the split would be a piece of cake and the article wouldn't need some edit work before (and after) the split. Splits always require reorganization of information and refactoring of an article. Wikipedia article splits do not happen by simple copy & paste. --Antonielly (talk) 20:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree, it would be hard work, but it would make researching the differences between the two much easier. I, for example, am writing a paper on the differences between European languages and their American off-shoots. The article American and British English differences was a tremendous help for English, and having one similar for Portuguese would have helped tremendously instead of searching through this article which has a lot of great info, but is not as focused as it could be.24.190.34.219 (talk) 01:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Imperative

Are we really certain that in cases like "Voce^ e' burro, cala a boca!" that the 2nd person imperative is being employed in place of the 3rd person imperative? I would think a more logical explanation is that the present tense is being co-opted for imperative functions. I.e., "Voce^ vai" to "Vai voce^!"

This makes alot more sense than supposing that Brazilian Portuguese speakers, most of whom have entirely dropped the 2nd person altogether, would have retained the 2nd person imperative to take over the 3rd person imperative. You never see a similar 2nd to 3rd person shift in any other situation, (e.g. "Voce^ falas"), which leads me to believe that "Cale a boca" vs. "Cala a boca" is rather an imperative/present tense merger. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.32.173.248 (talk) 01:52, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

You are right, it is using indicative for commands: Faz você! (instead of Faça você); O senhor vai sempre em frente! (instead of Vá sempre em frente!), Vocês me dão licença! (instead of Dêem-me licença). With the verb SER only subjunctive command is used: Seja você! (Seja tu! in regions that use tu), not imperative of tu: sê você/tu!, or indicative: é você!; you can also use infinitive for commands: favor não me ligar depois da meia-noite!, passar bem!, which is very common in Brazil, and rare in Portugal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Linda Martens (talk • contribs) 13:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. As a Brazilian Portuguese speaker, I think we probably do use the 2nd person imperative for 3rd person "você" imperative, because in fact the transition from "tu" to "você" wasn't as fast and total as non native speakers may think. Actually, only in São Paulo and some areas near to that state the pronoun "tu" has been dropped altogether. In the rest of Brazil, it subsists with diverse uses, from highly informal to slightly formal, depending on the dialect. So, probably during the transition from "tu" to "você" people kept both ways to say the imperative form of the verbs. In everyday conversations Brazilians tend to use both ways ("faz" and "faça", "tem" and "tenha"). It seems to me that the 3rd person imperative is more formal and authoritative, while the 2nd person imperative sounds more informal and less imposing (for example, "Faz isso para mim" in general sounds less like an order than "Faça isso para mim"). Nonetheless, apart from these subjective uses according to the context, both forms are widely used, and seldom they are preceded by the personal pronoun, what could indicate we'd be using the present indicative (anyway, that wouldn't be a proof of that, indeed, because in Portuguese there is no problem in emphasizing the imperative mood by adding the normally hidden personal pronoun; that is also done with the 3rd person imperative which has no equivalent form in the indicative, v.g. "Você me dê isso agora!", 'You give me this now!', is just the same case as "Tu/você me dá isso agora!").177.42.146.153 (talk) 06:23, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Regional accents

The following conversation started at talk:Curitiba, as it was originally about Curitibano. Since it applies to a number of similar articles, all linked from the section § Regional accents, I'm moving it here. — Sebastian 18:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

---

Should Curitibano be merged with this article? — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  21:05, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

That's one possibility; another one would be to merge that article into Brazilian Portuguese#Regional accents. There are only a handful of descriptions of regional varieties of BP, so I shouldn't bloat that article too much if we did that for all of them. And if it does get longer, it would still be more encyclopedic to single that section out into one article, rather than having an eternally unfinished stub for each accent. — Sebastian 21:24, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

I like your suggestion better than mine. One thing is I think the Brazilian Portuguese is fairly long, and while we could have a section there for all the different dialects, another possibility might be to create Brazilian Portuguese regional dialects as the main article for all the dialects, instead of including them all in Brazilian Portuguese. Just an idea. — LinguistAtLarge • Talk  17:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Of course - that's what I meant by "into one article". I just didn't know if we had enough material; but if you're up for the task, I fully support you; it will certainly be better than any of the small stubs we have now. I was thinking of adding {{Merge}} to the current accent articles, but that doesn't seem to allow for the case of merging to a new article, so I'll just add notes to their talk pages. — Sebastian 18:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Right in the beginning of the article there's a false information regarding spoken standards in Brazil. By 1937 the First National Congress of Singing Language set the carioca dialect (from Rio de Janeiro) as the golden standard for singing in Brazil. In 1956 the Congress of Spoken Word in Theater set again the same dialect to be the spoken standard for speakers in Brazil. Then the standard was not set by "nationwide dominance of TV networks based in the southeast" neither is it "unofficial". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.13.139.65 (talk) 12:58, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Elision of final unstressed /i/?

When I was in Rio a couple of years ago I heard several speakers pronounce words like "noite" as [nɔitʃ] rather than the expected [ˈnɔitʃi]. Apparently more educated/upper class people seemed more likely to say [nɔitʃ] while apparently less educated/lower class people seemed more likely to say [ˈnɔitʃi]. Does anyone more knowledgeable have any comment on this? Cheers. Grover cleveland (talk) 18:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I hear that all the time from BP speakers, so you're not the only one who's heard it, if that makes you feel better. I've heard it in all kinds of words. I've heard futebol pronounced [futʃˈbow] (or [bɔw]; I'm not sure about the vowel there; I'm used to Spanish). I've also heard many words ending in -ente pronounced with a final [tʃ] and sede sounding like English sedge (I'm not sure if the vowel was open or close once again). However, I can't tell you anything else about it :) I suppose they don't feel like they need to pronounce the final /i/ because the pronunciation of the /t/ or /d/ as a postalveolar affricate tells you that it's there. I can assure you, though, that they're not near as bad as EP speakers when it comes to elision of unstressed vowels :) 208.104.45.20 (talk) 12:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's a great audio clip of people (some native speakers and an American) discussing palatization in BP. Toward the end (about 80% of the way through), they talk about this elision. Here's a PDF that goes along with the audio and briefly discusses elision at the end. 208.104.45.20 (talk) 12:53, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

I am a native speaker of Brazilian Portuguese, an undergraduate student, and for me and most of people soround me, noite is pronounced [noitʃ], not [nɔitʃ], nome is pronounced [no:m] or [nomɪ], casebre is [ka'zɛ:bɾ] or [ka'zɛ.bɾɪ]. Futbow is more likely to be pronounced [fʊtʃˈbɔw] or [futʃˈbɔw], not [futʃˈbow]. Elision of unestressed "I" is quite common. Unestressed vowels can aslo turn into a schwa sound. Words ending in -se or -le will probably have an [ɪ] like passe ['pa.sɪ], peli ['pɛ.lɪ], but elision may happen in informal fast speech if the following word starts with a vowel sound: Passe o prato ['pɑ.so 'pɾɑ.to], pele amarela ['pɛ.lɑ.ma'ɾe.la]. User:KennedyBroseguini

present progressive

Portuguese makes extensive use of verbs in the progressive aspect, almost as in English.

BP seldom has the present continuous construct estar a + infinitive, which, in contrast, has become quite common in EP in the last centuries. BP maintains the Classical Portuguese form of continuous expression, which is made by estar + gerund.

Thus Brazilians will always write ela está dançando ("she is dancing"), seldom ela está a dançar.

The text implies that the distinction is between progressive versus non-progressive use. The problem I run into here is that estar + gerund is also progressive. Even though distinct use differences exist in aspect (see below), the gerund cannot be seen as less grammatical. periphrases in Romance: aspect, actionality, and grammaticalization - pp 133-134 To me that means no less a progressive tense.

from + past participle or Estar + gerund? Aspect and Syntactic Variation in Brazilian Portuguese:

In contemporary BP, estar + gerund and ter + participle actually appear in the same context when

the aspectual interpretation is iterative, and are commonly found in the data provided by a same speaker. That is a synchronic evidence of their variable use, as shown below:

• (1) Eu estou estudando muito ultimamente.

I am studying much lately

"I have been studying a lot lately" (iterative)

• (2) Eu tenho estudado muito ultimamente.

I have studied much lately

"I have been studying a lot lately" (iterative)

* note: for that matter, english has much the same thing, but commonly made clear with emphasis:

• (1) I am studying a lot lately.

I am studying a lot lately

"I have been studying a lot lately" (it's become a habit)

• (1) I have been very studious lately.

I have been very studious lately

"I have been studying a lot recently" (it's become a habit)

I suggest changing the first sentence to reflect that the difference being highlighted is one between estar + inf and estar + gerund, or else change the content of the difference displayed to reflect the usage differences, (ie, the examples should not show minimal differences, but like the examples above, show deeper differences). --— robbiemuffin ^{page talk} 12:47, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Differences between Brazilian and European Portuguese

FYI, see discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Brazilian_Portuguese —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.153.234.145 (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Unity of the language

I have placed a "citation needed" tag on the sentence "Nevertheless, the comparatively recent development of Brazilian Portuguese (and its use by people of various linguistic backgrounds), the cultural prestige and strong government support accorded to the written standard has maintained the unity of the language over the whole of Brazil and ensured that all regional varieties remain fully intelligible". I would like to see some linguistic sources that support the idea that the regional varieties of Brazilian Portuguese would have become mutually unintelligible by now in the absence of the aforementioned factors. I have particularly strong doubts about the role of the government's support: the English-speaking countries have managed to sustain uniform national standards and retain a high degree of mutual intelligibility internationally without large-scale state involvement in setting standards for the language. However, I know next to nothing about Portuguese, so any reliable sources on the subjects would be appreciated.VonPeterhof (talk) 07:51, 18 March 2012 (UTC)

"Roughly all"

The first sentence of this article includes the phrase "roughly all", as in, the language in question is "written and spoken by roughly all of the 190 million inhabitants[1] of Brazil". (There is a source for this, but I can't read it, since it's apparently in Brazilian Portugese... which is fine, but I can't read it.) I am not sure what "roughly all" means. It really doesn't seem like an acceptable phrase, at least not in English. Usually "roughly" means "approximately", as in "more or less", but it can't be "more or less" than "all" -- it can only be equal to or less than "all". "Roughly all" seems to leave us with two choices -- either it's "almost all," in which case that's the phrase that should be used, or it's not known for certain whether it's "all" or not, in which case I think the better phrase is "virtually all". The latter is slightly weasel-y, but it does convey the sense of uncertainty. After all, if we say "all", then one person out of 190 million makes it incorrect. So "virtually all" may be the way to go. What do you all think? (Especially those of you who can actually read the source.) Neutron (talk) 21:59, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

The source is no help at all, since it does not make any statements about language use (only about the number of people who live in Brazil). "Virtually all" sounds fine. Unoffensive text or character (talk) 07:40, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Section on Diglossia

The section on diglossia is silly and unscientific, and should be deleted. What the article really needs to clarify is the difference between standard language, colloquial language, and popular (i.e uneducated) vernacular, which, in Brazil, is not really that different from, let's say in Québec or the Netherlands (both places which are not normally associated with "diglossia").

I will give you a concrete example. The sentences below would be standard in Brazil:

Os meninos pegam os peixes.

Eu a vi saindo de casa ontem. (Note: In Portugal, Vi-a ...)

Ela me viu saindo de casa ontem. (Note: In Portugal, Ela viu-me...)

A pessoa com quem eu conversei era carioca.

A deputado cuja proposta foi aceita era paulista.

O que você quer que eu faça ?

Você quer que eu o ajude ?

Se eu vir o João, dou-lhe o recado.

Se você não fizer a tarefa, será reprovado.

The following sentences on the other hand belong to the so-called colloquial (i.e. educated middle-class) language.

Os meninos pegam os peixes. (*)

Eu vi ela saindo de casa ontem.

Ela me viu saindo de casa ontem. (*)

A pessoa com quem eu conversei era carioca. (*)

A deputado cuja proposta foi aceita era paulista. (*)

O que você quer que eu faça ? (*)

Você quer que eu te ajude ?

Se eu ver o João, dou o recado prá ele.

Se você não fizer a tarefa, vai ser reprovado. (**)

(*) Note: same as the standard.

(**)Note: also standard, though different from above.

In the popular language (frowned upon by educated middle-class speakers, but nonetheless very common among uneducated speakers), the same sentences would look quite different, e.g.

Os menino pega os peixe.

Eu vi ela saindo de casa ontem.

Ela viu eu saindo de casa ontem.

A pessoa que eu conversei com ele era carioca.

A deputado que a proposta dele foi aceita era paulista.

O que você quer que eu faço ?

Você quer que eu te ajudo ?

Se eu ver o João, dou o recado prá ele.

Se você não fazer a tarefa, vai ser reprovado.

Now, let me put a question to the non-native speakers of Portuguese who are reading this discussion: looking at the set of examples above, would you call this "diglossia" ? 161.24.19.112 (talk) 18:39, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Portuguese for Dummies

The article's first statements about the degree of difference between European and Brazilian Portuguese are documented by references to Say It in Portuguese and Portuguese for Dummies. Can someone, please, replace these lightweight-sounding textbooks for beginners with a more authoritative reference or two? Kotabatubara (talk) 03:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Which came first, this article or the "book" in Google Books?

This article, including all its mistakes, is matched word for word in a section beginning on page 39 of something like a book in the Google Books collection, at <http://books.google.com/books?id=XudKcVNit2UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=luca+scala+brazilian+portuguese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SAV6UZq5Jorj4AP_tIHIBQ&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA>. I say "something like" a book because it doesn't have the customary title page. Is this article composed entirely of copyrighted material from a book, or did the book download it from Wikipedia to sell in hard copy, or what? Should we continue to edit the article? Or, if it's going to be removed for plagiarism, why bother? Kotabatubara (talk) 04:53, 26 April 2013 (UTC)

The link no longer goes to the "book" that I saw; so the problem, if there was one, is now either solved or hidden. Kotabatubara (talk) 19:32, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Brazilian Portuguese, or Brazilian language?

The 5 June 2013 edits done by "89.155.160.155"—subsequently removed by "177.40.128.167", restored by "195.23.94.106", and again removed by me—seem to be based on an agenda of disassociating the language of Brazil (BP) from that of Portugal (EP). But regardless of how different they are, it is dishonest to suppress reference to the 1990 Orthographic Agreement, and it's a colloquial exaggeration to characterize BP as "a completely separate language". It is also contrary to Wikipedia policy to revert edits without giving an explanation if they are not obvious vandalism. Differences of opinion should be negotiated here on the Talk page, not through unexplained reversions. I urge other editors to decide whether or not the differences between BP and EP are rightly attributed primarily to the influence (in Brazil) of indigenous Brazilian (uppercase B, please) languages and Spanish. (Why would Spanish influence be stronger in the enormity of Brazil than in Portugal—no part of which is more than 250 km from Spain?) Kotabatubara (talk) 23:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Those vandalisms should be undone. Also, look how they changed the introduction: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Brazilian_Portuguese&diff=558373966&oldid=557661271

The article is now full of vandalisms... Pedro Listel (talk) 04:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Please specify the cases of vandalism that you see, so they can be corrected. Kotabatubara (talk) 16:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

"but has since become a completely separate language." ... "is the official language of Brazil" (Source? Is it in the Constitution of Brazil? Where? Because I read there: "Art. 13 - A língua portuguesa é o idioma oficial da República Federativa do Brasil." ) ... "who brought their language and became a much more important ethnic group in Brazil." (What does this mean? More important for what?)... and many, many, many more...

I mean, they are in such a great number, and the article has so much text without sources, that, IMO, the best would be to remove everything that doesn't have reliable sources from this article, because this article does a disservice to its readers. Pedro Listel (talk) 06:56, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Kotabatubara: most differences between BP and EP are not attributed to the influence on BP of indigenous Brazilian languages. In fact, apart from geographical names and a few words (mostly related to flora and fauna), the influence of native languages on standard BP is generally considered minimal. The divergence between the two languages is due mostly to natural processes of language evolution under geographical isolation and to post-19th century changes in European Portuguese. The pronunciation for example of many BP dialects is said to resemble pre-19th century Portuguese phonology much better than contemporary EP pronunciation.161.24.19.112 (talk) 18:17, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Brazil has indeed lots of dialects that are mostly "time-freezing" of original Portuguese pronunciation. My own, for example; save for the [ʀ > ʁ > x] evolution of the dominant pronunciation of the "hard" rhotic phoneme, for the further palatalization of a few consonants like [ti > tʃʲi] and [ʃ > ʃʲ], for L-vocalization and for coda r-gutturalization, the accent spoken in Rio de Janeiro ever since the landing of the Portuguese court until about the 1990s, and among some social groups who didn't acquire some more innovative phonological characteristics that have been more common lately (people are speaking slower and with lengthened vowels, so much that people who speak other dialects joke that we stereotypically add [ə̯] in some contexts that to me are inconceivable – mainly before nasal vowels and coda /ʁ/ –, among other things), is just identical to the one spoken in 19th century Lisbon. We also have tons of vowel reduction, and lenition of voiced consonants.

Inb4: rant. I kinda like the alternation of onset [ʀ] with coda [ɾ] more, to be honest (also, the latter one would maybe help to prevent this ugly but convenient/intuitive r-dropping in finals that became commonplace). Both sound very classy, much like Catalan [a ~ e > ə] reduction and stressed /u/ fronting, and to be honest I have a crush on the Japanese and Mandarin palatalizations (si > xi, zi > ji; qui > t(x)i, gui > d(j)i – we already do stuff as que=te in toddlerese (tate-bitate), but in a generalized case [cçi] and [ɟʝi ~ ʝi] as allophones would be in demand, for cases like estilo x esquilo and dia x guia, and to keep some names beautiful) if we were ever to expand ours (and no love for that Portuguese stuff done to the [poor] ss/sc/sç/xc digraphs). But people tend to digress (I'd have a mob running after me *nods*). Still it would be fun to give other Brazilians more reasons to complain. Speaking as if written is booooring, almost like if it defeated the very purpose of the language (being not Spanish!). :P Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 07:45, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

• I'll added OR and POV to the entire article, it always has been like that. But at least now it has the most significant issue, which is English influence in formal BP. But with a very poor example, which characterizes this all article: Estação and Gare. Probably someone saw the name of the station "Gare do Oriente" in Lisbon, and thought, they must call stations "Gare". This is all throw the article, full of wishful thinking by some people, and they tried really hard in this article, pushed to limits and extremes. The article only deserves some beautiful tags, because it is not teaching people, but misleading them. --Pedro (talk) 10:11, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Speakers

I deleted the statement "It is spoken by 51% of all [sic] the speakers in South America." To begin with, the only language mentioned so far in the article is Portuguese, so a reader could be forgiven for thinking that "speakers" means "speakers of Portuguese". We know that Brazilian Portuguese claims more than 51% of the Portuguese-speakers in South America (maybe 99%?). Okay, maybe the statement was intended to say 51% of the inhabitants or the population of South America. That may be a fact, but it's a fact "with attitude", a kind of boosterism that doesn't belong in an encyclopedia (note the redundant use of "all"). There is no need for the encyclopedia to portray different languages as rivals. Kotabatubara (talk) 15:27, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Precise origins of BP

This article seems to have one important omission. While it sketches how the use of Portuguese spread and evolved in the colonial era, it doesn't say where Brazilian Portuguese comes from. Latin American Spanish comes from Andalusian and Canarian, while American English shows some north English influence. Brazilian Portuguese, too, must have been shaped by the dialects that the original settlers spoke, and no doubt these origins account for some of the differences between (standard) EP and BP. Steinbach (talk) 22:07, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Most immigrants to Brazil were from northern and insular Portugal, but Brazilian Portuguese is most similar to central and southern Portuguese dialects. The same is true for the different flavors of Portuguese across the many African nations where it's spoken. We can't assert that it is because the central-southern Portuguese dialects are more conservative, though, because while it's true that Brazilian and African Portuguese are less innovative, I've never read a source on European Portuguese be authoritative on the subject. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 08:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Situation is changing

The situation is changing really fast in Brazil. Nowadays, people tend to speak Portuguese correctly. Nowadays the language really resembles the standard variety (I mean grammar itself, not pronunciation) and 90% of the people I know are really careful with their speeches and grammar. And people in Brazil tend to understand Spanish better than European Portuguese because of the phonology and not because of grammar. and again I repeat, the situation is changing and more people now are graduating from high school and going to the university. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KennedyBroseguini (talk • contribs) 07:42, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Speculation about future

Speaking of changes in Brazil, the article says "With the new wave of thousands of Portuguese establishing themselves in Brazil since the 2010s recession, it is not impossible that the accent will undergo some new changes that will bring the two accents closer together." People come to an encyclopedia looking for facts; so, is this kind of speculation about the future appropriate? And does "since the 2010s recession" mean that the recession is over before the 2010s are half over? Kotabatubara (talk) 19:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Why is there an Internet code pt-BR, but no ISO code for Brazilian Portuguese?

Contrary to what the article said, I am unable to find ISO language codes for Brazilian Portuguese, except for the hearing-impaired one. I will thus edit that portion. BTW, a section on the hearing-impaired variant would be interesting. To several other disputes in this page, I point the fact of the lack of an ISO code. Which also makes it dubious to need an Internet code... So, question, why an internet code? YamaPlos talk 18:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

article for Brazilian Sign Language does exist!. Yes, a small section in this article (and redirect) would be appropriate YamaPlos talk 18:55, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Topic-prominent language

In a language with grammatical cases, putting the object at the beginning is very common, yet they are not called topic-prominent languages. What makes Brazilian Portuguese different? Because the word order is less strict despite the lack of cases? --2.245.145.148 (talk) 21:36, 5 May 2016 (UTC)

Topics aren't just objects; any argument (subject, object, complement etc.) may be a topic. In the sentence "As for Japan, people prefer rice", "people" is the subject, "rice" the object, "Japan" the topic, and "people prefer rice" the comment (contrast with "People prefer rice in Japan").

Most (all?) languages have some sort of topic-comment structure; in English this is usually done by fronting, and optionally with markers like "as for…" or "speaking of…". What's different in topic-promiment languages is that they have topic-comment as the normal pattern; it's common and systematic. Note that Brazilian Portuguese (BP) even resorts to the so-called "redundant subject" constructions, just to preserve the topic-comment structure: "O atacante, ele fez o gol" (the striker, he scored the goal) is a very natural spoken expression for BP speakers. For more information, see the article on topic-prominent languages.

All of the above is orthogonal to morphologically marked cases, or word order strictness. All combinations of these properties may occur.

--leoboiko (talk) 15:25, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

'indisputably majoritary'

'Majoritary' is not an English word!89.142.215.24 (talk) 14:31, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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European Portuguese vs Brazilian Portuguese

Hello fellow wikipedians,

I have taken the advice of one of our fellow editors and attempted to change the tone of the article from a contrast/compare of EP vs BP to an article that focuses on Brazilian Portuguese.

I am also adding a great Dialects section from the main Portuguese language page. It is well cited and I believe the proper place for it is on the Brazilian Portuguese page. I will not delete it from the main Portuguese page because I feel it is important to showcase there also because there are more Portuguese speakers in Brazil than anywhere else in the world. Let me know what you think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rorschaq (talk • contribs) 22:18, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

"Radicalized" and "nativized", but not "decreolized"?

In the section "Other influences" I've tried to rewrite some passages for clarity without changing the meaning of the contents. I preserved the use of the terms "radical Romanic", "nativization", and "decreolized" because I am not qualified to suggest better terms, but I would like some pidgin/creole experts to reassure me that these are legitimate linguistic terms and are being used accurately here. Kotabatubara (talk) 16:57, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Article has long lists

The long lists of foreign words in the article could be moved to another article or collapsed with an appropriate template box. -Inowen (talk) 22:40, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Bad example for existential TER verb

In the section that talks about the use of existential verb ter there is this line:

• replacing haver when it means "to exist" with ter ("to have"): há muitos problemas na cidade[14] ("there are many problems in the city") can be heard, but is much rarer than tem muitos problema(s) na cidade.[15]

The sentence taken out of context, making it unnatural to Brazilian Portuguese speakers. "Tem muitos problemas na cidade" is not a representation for 'existential ter', in fact, in the source, it is part of the sentence "mas reconhece que a saúde ainda tem muitos problemas na cidade", which translates to "but he recognises that the health [system] still has many problems in the city". As such it is misleading, as "Há muitos problemas na cidade" is far more common than the non-existent "tem muitos problemas na cidade". The correct representation of existential ter in this sentence would be "a cidade tem muitos problemas". TheLucasSchimmel (talk) 23:54, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• If I understand correctly, one solution to the out-of-context problem would be to delete the links to outside sources—which I will do. "Tem muitos problemas na cidade" stands on its own as an example of existential ter; it doesn't need a citation to support its authenticity. Kotabatubara (talk) 16:22, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Palatalization of final /s/

The section titled "Palatalization of final sibilants" says nothing about final sibilants being rendered palatal; it's entirely about the vowel change from /mas/ to /majs/, /tres/ to /trejs/, etc. The palatalization of final /s/ is, instead, mentioned in passing in the section titled "Phonetic changes". But it seems like a major, noticeable trait that deserves more prominent presentation. Can someone with more than my knowledge of BP dialects fix this? Are /s/ palatalization and epenthetic /j/ independent of each other? Is epenthetic /j/ only in final syllables that are stressed? Is mas "but" stressed? Kotabatubara (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I have edited to make the section titles more in line with their contents. Kotabatubara (talk) 00:42, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

"Latin Portuguese"?

The article says BP is "also known as Latin American Portuguese or Latin Portuguese", but I cannot find any evidence that either of these terms is used in real life. The Google Ngram Viewer finds no instances of "Latin American Portuguese", with or without a hyphen. Meanwhile, instances of "Latin Portuguese" are extremely rare. Most appear in the titles of Latin-Portuguese bilingual dictionaries. The remainder appear in series of language names, separated by a comma. Nor does either term appear in the Corpus of Contemporary American English. If there are no objections in the next several days, I volunteer to delete that deceptive phrase. Kotabatubara (talk) 04:13, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Recognised minority language in the Philippines?

Recognised minority language in the Philippines?

Where is the source of that information? Jumark27 (talk) 06:23, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

@Jumark27: Those were recent unsourced IP edits. I've reverted them. –Austronesier (talk) 10:08, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

"Latin Portuguese" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Latin Portuguese and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 March 29#Latin Portuguese until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:09, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

So many photos!

Why does an article on the language need to include a photographic tour of architecture? Kotabatubara (talk) 02:23, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Phonology

The Phonology section, at least, goes on and on and on without a clear explanation of the actual phonology (phonemes and allophones) of Brazilian Portuguese. It starts with detailed side points and keeps going along those lines.

The vowel charts do not clearly indicate whether the letters are supposed to be phonemes or phonetic sounds; shouldn't // or [ ] be used?

MAIN POINT: As far as I can tell from other sources (e.g., Whitlam, Modern Brazilian Portuguese Grammar; Perini, Talking Brazilian), the sounds e and ɛ, and o and ɔ are respective separate phonemes, as minimal pairs exist (at least in stressed position), such as "sede" and "forma". But are a and ɐ separate phonemes, or just allophones of /a/? If the former, how about showing a minimal pair, if one exists? If allophones, how about delineating the respective environments? 2603:9000:AC08:A600:885D:2254:F3CA:F6F3 (talk) 22:49, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. This article and Portuguese phonology still suffer from too much phonetics and too little phonology. The latter used to be really bad (ranty with bad English and bad IPA, the culprits were a small group of Brazilian editors) until I started to fix it about two years ago. It's still far from perfect, but my time and especially my understanding of Portuguese phonology is limited. I can only do so much in this area and I'm sure that my English isn't impeccable either - feel free to call out my hypocrisy on the user talk page, lol. Sol505000 (talk) 16:00, 26 March 2023 (UTC)

We should erase all countries under "Recognised Minority Language" due to lack of sources

I searched a bit for Colombia and Paraguay and could not find anyþing. Gusano64 (talk) 11:59, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

"Brazilian and Portuguese varieties" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Brazilian and Portuguese varieties has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 9 § Brazilian and Portuguese varieties until a consensus is reached. cogsan _{(nag me) (stalk me)} 14:53, 9 September 2024 (UTC)