Talk:Freemasonry

Freemasonry is a secret society

The lexical knowledge:

• Encyclopedia Britannica Freemasonry (Definition): Freemasonry, the teachings and practices of the fraternal (men-only) order of Free and Accepted Masons, the largest worldwide secret society — an oath-bound society, often devoted to fellowship, moral discipline, and mutual assistance, that conceals at least some of its rituals, customs, or activities from the public (secret societies do not necessarily conceal their membership or existence).
• Wikipedia: Secret Society#Definitions: Historian Richard B. Spence of the University of Idaho offered a similar three-pronged definition: The group's existence is usually not kept secret, but some beliefs or practices are concealed from the public and require an oath of secrecy and loyalty to learn. ...Spence's definition includes groups traditionally thought of as secret societies (Freemasons and Rosicrucians) ... Historian Jasper Ridley argues that Freemasonry is, "the world's most powerful secret Society".

The logical thinking:

• The principle of secrecy with the obligation of confidentiality and the hierarchical initiation system implies that there must necessarily be secrets kept, otherwise it would be an open community like any other. It is also known from Freemasonry that there is secret cipher (Masonic cipher), rituals, gestures, handsigns, symbols and passwords for mutual identification, as well as non-public membership lists. All of these secret aspects are therefore more reminiscent of the practices of a secret service than of an ethical association that only withholds a few scientific secrets from humanity that could be learned by oneself anyway.
• To assume that just because some (very old) secrets of Freemasonry are now publicly known, is as naive as believing that a secret service would stop its work just because a few of its encryptions were decoded. Of course it can be assumed that, as with any secret service, these methods are constantly being improved and developed in secret.
• If secret symbols and codes have been used once (secret society), it can be assumed that they can always be used. It is not possible to prove the contrary. An exposed enemy secret agent will always be classified by security authorities as a possible spy, even if he becomes a stonemason afterwards. Because it is impossible to prove, that he no longer is an enemy agent.
• Thank you.

Wikiprediger (talk) 22:51, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Actually, neither Britannica nor Wikipedia are considered reliable sources here. They're both tertiary. SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:28, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Another issue is that there are multiple definitions of the term “secret society”. While some of these definitions do apply to fraternal groups (such as the Freemasons, Knights of Columbus, Elks, and college fraternities)… other definitions DON’T apply.

And because there are multiple definitions, we can not state in Wikivoice that such and such fraternity IS a “secret society”.

What we CAN do is note that while definition “X” applies to such fraternal groups, definition “Y” does NOT apply (see WP:NPOV). And that requires going into context and nuance that isn’t really appropriate for the lead sentence. Blueboar (talk) 13:06, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

As to the specific definitions discussed above: at least in the United States, Freemasonry does not fit even those definitions.

Let’s look at Brittanica’s definition: it defines the term as concealing “at least some of its rituals, customs or practices from the public”… Freemasonry does not. It freely acknowledges that ALL of its rituals, customs and practices have been exposed SO MANY times (often with pictures and diagrams) that NONE of it is secret any more. You can even purchase copies of the various “official” rituals on-line.

Same with Spence’s definition… again, what may have once been concealed from the public is now publicly available.

As for your “logic”… it seems you really don’t understand the subject matter. You talk about Freemasonry having a “cypher”. I assume you are referring to the Pigpen cypher, which some sources refer to as the “Masonic cypher”. It is hardly “secret”. Schoolchildren learn it. (I remember learning it when I was around 10 years old. I thought I could send messages to my classmates without my teachers knowing what I was saying… turned out my teachers had learned it when they were children). More importantly it ISN’T actually taught in Masonic Lodges. I’m not sure how it became associated with Freemasonry, but it isn’t Masonic at all.

As for the “secret” handshakes, passwords, symbolism etc etc… this is stuff that once (back in the 16th century) WAS a secret way for Masons to identify each other… but because it was all exposed over and over again, it is no longer considered secret. In the modern day, Grand Lodges issue dues cards so masons can verify their membership to each other. Or they can simply email the relevant Grand Lodge main office and ASK: “is so-and-so a member in good standing?” (In fact, anyone can do this… The membership rolls are a matter of public record).

The basic problem is that you assume that Freemasons “must” be doing something secret behind those closed doors, but your assumption is incorrect. The reality is that the Freemasons don’t have ANY secrets any more. They simply pretend at secrecy (out of tradition). Oh, It did have secrets once… but NONE of it is actually secret anymore (and hasn’t been for about two hundred years). Blueboar (talk) 20:41, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Fine, i had a similar disussion already in the german wikipedia (i'm from germany). My conclusion was to write an own article with criticism on freemasonry - i have too much points to discuss them all individually here. It would take months for probably only some changes in the end. In a more critic article is place for this - i think it's the right way to do. The article is nearly complete in german - i'll then transalte it to english. Thank you. Wikiprediger (talk) 18:31, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

FYI, you should probably see our existing article on Anti-Masonry… it may already cover much of what you are talking about. Blueboar (talk) 20:01, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Anti-Masonry for me is a too strong term. This article is more about politics and religion. Criticism for me is something else. But thank you for that hint. Wikiprediger (talk) 20:09, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

No problem… just didn’t want you to waist your time duplicating what has already been done. As Billy Crystal said in The Princess Bride: “Have fun storming the castle!” Blueboar (talk) 21:24, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. twink twink. You mean one of the freemasonry headquarters - the holy wood on I am the bee (imdb.com)? i already had. twink twink. the secret is about the keywords there. do you have any further questions, i can give you a short instruction how to disturb their global communication. twink twink. greetings to your masters. they're not mine. Wikiprediger (talk) 15:10, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

How may you do better to me for joining in?

How may you do better to me for joining in? 197.250.231.1 (talk) 07:26, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia can not help with that. Blueboar (talk) 11:07, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

History creep

I note that over time, a lot of editors have been adding subsections to the “History” section - outlining the history of the fraternity in specific countries/regions (China, the Caribbean, etc). I am wondering if these subsections are appropriate for this article (which should be an overview - with links to more detailed articles). We have numerous Freemasonry in X articles that might be a better venue for this sort of information. Please discuss. Blueboar (talk) 13:04, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Fellowcraft vs Fellow Craft

We seem to have a disagreement on the spelling of the name of the second degree. One word or two? I did a google ngram that seems to support that it should be one word (“Fellowcraft”), and this matches the sources I have in my library. Also, I note that the United Grand Lodge of England spells it as one word, and this article is marked as using UK spelling. Blueboar (talk) 11:40, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Greetings @Blueboar, I understand that many jurisdictions have lost the ancient way of writing Fellow Craft and now just spell it as one word, which is becoming more popular now, same thing happened with Free-Masonry, Free-Mason, and it might happen in the future with Master Mason and Entered Apprentice, I am not advocating that we get rid of Fellowcraft in this article, but that we present both spelling, Fellow Caft is the historically accurate way of spelling the word, which is why Rituals use the abbreviation F.C. and is still used in many jurisdictions, thus this spelling is relevant today as a way to understand why F.C. is used, to respect jurisdiction that are still using this spelling and as the correct historical spelling. Again I do not want to get rid of the other spelling just present both for a more accurate and encyclopedic understanding.

Addendum: After some research it looks like Fellow Craft is still more used than Fellowcraft and gaining in popularity, and looking at historical mentions of the term, you can see the overwhelming use of Fellow Craft vs Fellowcraft pre-1950. Here is a comparison. HyperSite (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Moderns to Premiere Grand Lodge

The term "Moderns" was originally coined as a derogatory label by a newer Grand Lodge that referred to themselves as the "Antients." This misleading terminology persisted for centuries, causing significant confusion within Masonic circles. In recent years, most Masonic jurisdictions have agreed to adopt the more accurate term "Premiere Grand Lodge" to refer to the organization previously known as the "Moderns." This change aims to clarify the historical timeline and avoid the negative connotations associated with the older terminology. To improve accuracy and reduce confusion, it is recommended that all mentions of the outdated term "Moderns" be replaced with "Premiere Grand Lodge" throughout this article. This update will better reflect current Masonic scholarship and nomenclature. HyperSite (talk) 15:53, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

Not without some cites for "most Masonic jurisdictions", please. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:35, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

The Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076 guide lines alone should suffice, in the "Revised Style Guide - Ars Quatuor Coronatorum" to publish any research papers, it is stated page 12-13 that: "In Masonic writing the words ‘Antients’ and ‘Moderns’ call for especial care. It would seem preferable to refer to ‘the Antient Grand Lodge’ or ‘the Antients’ rather than to ‘the Antients’ Grand Lodge’. It is in any event recommended that the Grand Lodge of 1717 be described as ‘the Premier Grand Lodge’ [now spelt with an initial capital letter] rather than that of the Moderns." You can access the document here. HyperSite (talk) 18:17, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

How can I enter please

How can I enter please 154.159.237.102 (talk) 07:31, 1 November 2024 (UTC)