Talk:Toronto streetcar system

Route length

Prior to the mods I made, most of the route lengths in the Routes table and in most route articles appeared to be derived from a 2009 Service Summary and were somewhat different from the lengths given in a 2020 Service Summary. For example, the 2009 SS said 511 Bathurst was 6.47 km long but the 2020 SS said 5.33 km. For comparison, the Google Maps distance is about 5.3 km. Except for 508 Lake Shore, both the 2009 and 2020 SS give the round trip length which must be divided by 2 for the Wikipedia articles. For 508, the length is expressed as two one-way lengths: eastbound 18.88 km, westbound 19.95 km (Google Maps gives about 17.8 km, Long Branch to Parliament Street); the article had erroneously recorded half of the one-way trip. The Routes table shows only the EB length; the 508 article shows both EB & WB length. The length of night routes, where different from daytime, appear in the route article infobox, but not in the Routes table. I am not certain whether the 503 Kingston Rd length in the 2020 SS is for the original streetcar route or the slightly different replacement bus route prior to the pandemic cutbacks. I changed all the lengths to agree with the 2020 SS in the Routes table as well as the the infobox in each route article. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 17:51, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

The streetcar route lengths are rounded to one decimal like the subway line lengths. The TTC gives round-trip length to 2 decimals; however, after dividing by 2, the accuracy is not quite to 2 decimals; thus, the table length has been rounded to 1 decimal. The 2020 service summary is the citation used for route length as it reflects the route lengths before the diversions of 2021–2023. The 503 length should be from Bingham Loop to York Street rather than to Spadina Avenue. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 14:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

One decimal place is enough. There is no need to be overly precise. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 17:50, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Constant updates of Routes section

I think that the routes section is contrary to WP:NOTTIMETABLE - explaining exactly which routes are being diverted due to construction gives a very very bloated look to the table, and really people should be going to TTC for that information. I do think that 508 Lakeshore being suspended due to Covid-19 would meet notability criteria though. Turini2 (talk) 17:03, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree that it seems a bit awkward, but I feel like in this case it is unavoidable because the route diversions are technically a splitting into sub-routes. Not updating it in this fashion would run the risk of the page becoming misrepresentative, as there is no telling how long these changes could last, similar to COVID-19 suspensions. I think we should err on the side of inclusion in this case as long as it is kept tight and heavily summarized – as is, it is simply being noted with a link to the TTC for further information, which feels appropriate. If the section is being constantly updated by editors who are taking that work on, it's better than an outdated section that isn't comprehensive or accurate. Julius177 (talk) 18:56, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Delisted streetcar routes

When the TTC installed its new website, it delisted 508 Lake Shore as well as the downtown express buses (routes 141-145). However, in comments at the end of an article on his blog, Steve Munro says that delisting does not mean cancellation. The TTC service summary for October 10, 2021 indicates a "temporary suspension".

When 502 Downtowner was delisted from the TTC website in January 2020, User:Blaixx commented out its entry in the Toronto streetcar system#Routes table. Other contributers (including myself) assumed delisting meant cancellation, and made other mods accordingly. However, looking back at TTC sources, the TTC never said it cancelled the route; the service summary implies that route 502 is inactive.

So the question is: Should we assume that delisted (in the cases of 502, 508, 141-145) means cancelled, or that delisted means inactive due to a long-term suspension? Should we consider a delisted streetcar route to be a discontinued streetcar route? @Blaixx, Joeyconnick, and Johnny Au: Route 508 Lake Shore delisted on TTC website TheTrolleyPole (talk) 20:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Unlike the 502, the 508 still appears in the latest system map from October 2021. If it ever gets removed completely from the customer-facing sections of the website, then I think we should treat it as permanently closed. I'm happy with the current status quo. BLAIXX 23:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 00:02, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

OK, agreed. No changes for 502 & 508. However, by the Blaixx definition, the downtown express buses can be deemed discontinued as they have been "removed completely from the customer-facing sections of the website" including the system map online and in TTC waiting shelters. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 02:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Good point. I've made the change at List of Toronto Transit Commission bus routes. BLAIXX 15:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 00:18, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

@Blaixx, Joeyconnick, and Johnny Au: The TTC has erased 508 Lake Shore from its Subway and Streetcar Map and System Map on the TTC website. Thus, according to the Blaixx rule, we should deem the delisted 508 route to be cancelled, and should change articles to reflect that deemed status. Agreed? TheTrolleyPole (talk) 22:35, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Well it would be hard to argue with something called the "Blaixx rule"! I think we can make the change and consider the service cancelled. Note that it has also been removed from the service summary. BLAIXX 22:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I strongly agree with the "Blaixx rule." I really like that name. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 00:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

So apparently the 508 is coming back in September (link). Funny how that happens sometimes. BLAIXX 21:06, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Temporary streetcar route changes

I have noticed that contributors have replaced descriptions of the normal streetcar route with descriptions of temporary service changes. I observed this both in the Toronto streetcar system#Routes table as well as in the individual route articles. I feel we should never hide the normal route description, and I have started to restore such descriptions in various articles (501 Queen, 504 King and 506 Carlton) as well as the Routes table.

I notice that User:Canterbury Tail reversed a mod by Alex (Brampton). Alex had replaced the normal route description with a temporary service change description, and Canterbury said: "We are not a travel guide, we deal with the subject generally. Temporary changes in route is not the purview of an encyclopaedia." I wouldn't object to a brief temporary service change description in a route article's intro that can be easily deleted when the temporary change ends, but in my opinion no other part of the article should be changed. Are there any objections?

In the routes table, there are temporary service change descriptions for 501 and 504 (lasting from May 2021 to February 2022) but not for 505 and 506 (November 2021 to February 2022). Is there a criteria when to mention a temporary service change? Could we set criteria such as no descriptions for temporary service changes lasting less than a month?

@Joeyconnick, Johnny Au, and Blaixx: Your opinion is requested. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 02:19, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTDIRECTORY and WP:NOTNEWS, temporary changes under a month shouldn't be included in Wikipedia. If readers want to know if there are any short-term temporary changes to the routes, there's always the official TTC website or the TTCHelps Twitter account. Wikipedia is for more long-term changes. Johnny Au (talk/contributions) 02:34, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Agree very much that anything temporary should be a minor prose mention at most, and definitely not in the lead and not with language like "currently" because MOS:RELTIME. So 501 Queen definitely needs fixing to take it out of the lead. —Joeyconnick (talk) 19:31, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Recently, it appears that you indicated that my above proposal may violate WP:NOTAGUIDE. It seems that adding a brief note to describe a diversion is unacceptable in a route article (except in the history section), but may be acceptable in the Toronto streetcar system#Routes (since these have not been deleted). For the route articles you indicated that the notes should not be added to the intro; however, for 504 you deleted the note after I moved it from the intro to 504 King#Route. The reason I added the temporary notes was to discourage other editors from removing the permanent route description and replacing it with a description of the diversion. In several cases, I had to restore the permanent description. Could we please clarify the rules? TheTrolleyPole (talk) 19:01, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

My take would be temporary route diversions should be in the history sections and only there (and possibly only if of a certain magnitude... like, and I'm spitballing here, 6 months or more?). I def don't think we should list them as notes with special formatting and WP:UNDUE weight because we're not a transit info website, although I get why you were doing that to try to help prevent people from making changes to reflect the route as it right when another editor is making their edits. I think the way to deal with those kinds of edits is to simply revert them citing WP:NOTAGUIDE.

As for where I haven't or have removed descriptions of temp route diversions, I honestly don't manage to keep watch over all Toronto transit articles at all times, so inconsistencies are not necessarily indicative of me thinking listing temp routes are okay in one place but not in another. —Joeyconnick (talk) 00:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. Defining magnitude as 6 months or more is fine. But could you tell me whether you find placing temporary notes in Toronto streetcar system#Routes (for diversions of 6+ months) to be acceptable. I want to know if it is acceptable to continue this practice. Given your last answer, I plan to remove the 503 note as bus replacement will likely end within 6 months. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

I am abandoning the above proposal as while implementing it, user User:Joeyconnick raised several objections preventing its implementation. I will only document long-term diversions (6+ months) in the history section of route articles. I will eventually delete the existing temporary diversion notes as the diversions end, if they are not deleted by someone else sooner. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 19:21, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

503 diversion

I am making an exception to the above rule for 503 Kingston Rd which, when streetcars are running, has been diverting to Spadina Avenue (Charlotte Loop) instead of York Street over the last 4½ years (since June 19, 2017). I made the exception due to the longevity of the diversion, which seems to have with no end in sight. The TTC's 503 page shows both western terminals, and the TTC streetcar and system maps show 503 ending at York Street rather than Spadina Avenue. When replacement buses are running on 503, the western terminal reverts back to York Street. Let me know if you disagree with this decision. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 00:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I recently revised the 503 route description to show its York Street terminal since this is its official terminal, and 503 will return to it once construction is completed on Wellington Street sometime in 2023. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 19:05, 8 January 2023 (UTC)