Talk:List of automotive superlatives

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Rules

The following questions have been resolved by a public vote and discussion.

Honorable mentions for disputed entries - A consensus is required before a dispute about an entry bumps it down to honorable mention status.

Production numbers - The "20 produced" rule refers to the superlative version, not just the named model in general.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sfoskett (talk • contribs) 20:36, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Shortest cars

I would like to note that the smart fortwo is not the shortest production car. I can think of at least one example shorter, and that would be the ford gt at 44.3 inches. 4038 were produced, 3596 sold. I would not be surprised if there are shorter production cars, and there should definitely be shorter limited production cars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.124.148 (talk) 22:53, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Shortest refers to length, not height. The Ford GT is 44.3 inches high. The Ford GT40 is even lower. But neither are short cars.  Stepho  (talk) 23:49, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

I have some trouble with the currently listed shortest "car" (the Peel P50), because in many countries it would not legally qualify as a car, but as something else, ranging from a quadricycle to a moped, to a completely off-highway contraption ...

For instance, in my own country (Holland), its 50cc engine and its 45 kph top "speed" would not only relegate it to the category of "Brommobiel" (literally translated, a "moped mobile" – EU says quadricycle, light), but it would also be prohibited from using Holland's motorways and expressways — even from using arterial roads ! --GeeTeeBee (talk) 20:59, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Cars before World War II,

I thnk the list should allow these cars to be listed , there is now already many cars before WW2. -->Typ932 ^T·C 06:42, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

The intro to the article clearly says "In order to keep the entries relevant, the list (except for the firsts section) is limited to automobiles built after World War II, and lists superlatives for earlier vehicles separately." I don't know who came up with this rule, but it is consistently being ignored, which gives the article a wishy-washy look. We either stick to the rule and remove all examples from the 20s and 30s from the main list, or we remove this rule, but I think the current situation is unsustainable. Opinions? El monty (talk) 10:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm happy to allow cars before WWII.  Stepho  talk  01:13, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but why would pre WW II cars be excluded ? --GeeTeeBee (talk) 21:01, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Peel P50

GeeTeeBee and myself have a disagreement over the Peel P50. He wants to have the following disclaimer on its entry "The Peel P50 was and is road legal as a car in the United Kingdom, but its legal status as a car in most other countries is unsure." I prefer it to not have a disclaimer. If it is worthy of being here at all then it doesn't need a disclaimer to say whether it is road-legal or not. Alternatively, if it doesn't count as an automobile (eg, the UK will only register it as a 3-wheeled motorcycle and Finland register it as a moped), then it shouldn't be here at all.  Stepho  talk  11:30, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Stepho-wrs: We'd need to decide if this list should include motorcycles or just automobiles with only four wheels. Besselfunctions (talk) 22:52, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Bit of a grey area. They're registered in the UK as 3-wheelers but not necessarily as motorcycles. If we exclude it then we also have to exclude things like the Reliant Robin and the Morgan Motor Company#V-Twin three-wheelers (1911–1939).  Stepho  talk  00:21, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

I've restarted this question below, under a proper title heading.

With regards to Reliant Robins and similar, and the Morgan three-wheelers, many countries do require a car driver's license for them, and they were typically listed in car catalogues, back in the day — not in motorcycle catalogues. --GeeTeeBee (talk) 14:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Edit — As far as the Peel is concerned, I accept the fact that the Guinness Book of Records had them on record as the worlds smallest car for decades. --GeeTeeBee (talk) 14:22, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Street Legal means .. ?

Defining anything street legal, would – in its current phrasing — not only include four-wheeled non-cars and non-trucks, such as quadricycles, but also trikes, motorcycles, mopeds, even slow motor vehicles like farm-tractors. (Yes, even farm tractors have license plates in Europe). Does this list intend to include all those ? --GeeTeeBee (talk) 14:06, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Street legal catches a broad range of vehicles. On the Production car speed record the definition used is (arrived at after about 5 or more years of debate):

1885 Benz Motorwagen in Frankfurt, 2007

For the purposes of this list, a production car is defined as a vehicle that is:

• constructed principally for retail sale to consumers, for their personal use, to transport people on public roads (no commercial or industrial vehicles are eligible)
• available for commercial sale to the public in the same specification as the vehicle used to achieve the record
• manufactured in the record-claiming specification by a manufacturer whose WMI number is shown on the VIN, including vehicles that are modified by either professional tuners or others that result in a VIN with a WMI number in their name (for example, if a Porsche-based car is remanufactured by RUF and has RUF's WMI W09, it is eligible; but if it has Porsche's WMI, WP0, it is not eligible)
• pre-1981 vehicles must be made by the original vehicle manufacturer and not modified by either professional tuners or individuals
• street-legal in its intended markets, having fulfilled the homologation tests or inspections required under either a) United States of America, b) European Union law, or (c) Japan) to be granted this status
• sold in more than one national market.

The first paragraph on the List of automotive superlatives limits the list to automobiles built after World War II''. A tractor by definition is not an automobile, nor are mopeds etc.

Your question to be considered is more appropriately: Are Peel P50's considered an automobile?

The first car was a three wheeler NealeFamily (talk) 05:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

This is pretty close to my concern. I'm 50/50 whether the Peel P50 is an automobile. I'm also worried that a knee jerk change to the rules will remove vehicles such as the Reliant Robin and the Morgan 3-wheelers. Without due care, even the Benz Patent-Motorwagen and the Ford Quadricycle might not be classified as cars. Perhaps the pragmatic way is to only include vehicles that are classified as automobiles in their home market and let the government definition in that market decide for us. But might have trouble if 2 similar vehicles are classified differently in each of their home markets though.  Stepho  talk  06:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

From New Zealand legislation the Transport Act 1962 Section 2 Interpretations - motorcar means a motor vehicle (other than a motor cycle or moped) designed exclusively or principally for the carriage of persons not exceeding 9 in number inclusive of the driver; and includes a motor vehicle which is designed principally for the carriage of passengers but which has rear doors and collapsible rear seats.

The Land Transport Act 1998 Section 168A allows the New Zealand Transport Agency to exempt vehicles with a less than 1.500 kw motor. The Peel P50 motor is more powerful and therefore would be classed as a motorcar in New Zealand. However I can't test this as there are none in NZ so my theory would have to go down as original research at this stage. NealeFamily (talk) 08:05, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, especially to NealeFamily, for your extensive replies ! — I think the list would benefit from including some of these clarifications in the lead section. For instance the definition of what is understood to be a (road) car is left too implicit, for my taste, the only really hard criterium being road legality ... Hence my inquiry. — Aside from that a couple of other considerations:

I always thought WP should be lead more by secondary sources than primary ones (like laws), so I would think more emphasis should be given to whether automotive journalists were / are leaning towards calling something a car or not ?

And secondly, why the restriction with emphasis on passenger vehicles ? Is a truck not simply a big, heavy car ? Or is there a separate list with truck superlatives ? — (I looked for it but couldn't find it) — I would support separate sections for trucks, but would argue against separate lists, for the benefit of achieving a comprehensive overview of automotive superlatives, especially automotive firsts. --GeeTeeBee (talk) 17:24, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The problem with expanding the list to include trucks would tend to render the list meaningless when talking about size and measurements (eg would the Bagger 288 qualify. I think keeping it to cars is sufficient and relevant. No matter what form is finally decided upon, you will need to put specific qualifying parameters around any list. That was one of the major difficulties in sorting out the Production car speed record article. To work out what a production car was when there is no specific authoritative source came close to breaching the original research rule. NealeFamily (talk) 21:54, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Once again, my position is pretty close to NealeFamily. No point in comparing the biggest/longest/heaviest car when almost any Mack truck will beat it hands down. Cars are hard to define. Many countries define a Ford F-150 as a car when deciding which license is required to drive it but as a truck for less stringent emissions laws (one reason for their great popularity in the US). A BRP Can-Am Spyder Roadster is a motorbike but Morgan Motor Company#Early cars: three-wheelers and 4-4s are cars. Some countries do the split by engine power, some by total weight (laden or unladen), some by arbitrary choice (a government officer looks at it and says "motorbike").  Stepho  talk  22:24, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Forgive me, but didn't I already advocate including trucks under separate sections ? Is anyone going to argue that trucks are not automotive ? — Pushing them out into a separate article would prohibit a truly comprehensive overview of first and superlatives.

But I realize that I still didn't properly nail the title of my question — my central beef, I think, is that the current lead of this list relies too much on the assumption that everybody agrees on what an automobile or a motor car is, and what is covered under the term "automotive", without laying out hard criteria in the lead, other than street legality. Furthermore, excluding light trucks, I think, is a particularly North or U.S. American POV (does Canada even do that ?) — most European countries simply use a weight criterium to distinguish between cars and trucks. I think this is a very serious POV issue. --GeeTeeBee (talk) 09:39, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Cugnot

Should Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot's 1770 steam vehicle not be included under firsts, as this was the world's first working self-propelled land-based mechanical vehicle built and operated with certainty ? --GeeTeeBee (talk) 11:31, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

My thought is, not while this list looks like an unmoderated and random collection of information. The whole list needs someone to re-organise its rules/definitions with consensus from the community, and then tidy up the contents to match them. The rules as they currently stand seem to be broken with pre WW2 cars included in a list described as post WW2, and a list of pre-war cars which leaves open the question of which war. The basics need sorting before anything else is added. When that is done, then there is something to talk about. NealeFamily (talk) 08:11, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

OK, so that takes us back then, right to the questions I kicked up in the previous section ?

And you agree with me then, that this list/article's rules and definitions — in spite of all the work put into it already — (and I'm sorry I didn't bring these things up at least five years earlier..) — still need to be more clearly worked out, determined and outlined ? --GeeTeeBee (talk) 10:19, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes - there are a number of issues. The rules as they stand are:

:This list (except for the firsts section) is limited to automobiles built after World War II, and lists superlatives for earlier vehicles separately. The list is also limited to production road cars that:

Are constructed principally for retail sale to consumers for personal use transporting people on public roads. No commercial or industrial vehicles are included

Have had 25 or more instances made by the original vehicle manufacturer offered for sale to the public in new condition (cars modified by either professional tuners or individuals are not eligible)

Are street-legal in their intended markets and capable of passing any official tests or inspections required to be granted this status

The issues as I see them are

• the definition of an automobile (does it include utility vehicles/light trucks such as Ford F100)
• the definition of a production vehicle - this was covered in a lengthy debate in the Production car speed record which arrived at the following definition -

3.manufactured in the record-claiming specification by a manufacturer whose WMI number is shown on the VIN, including vehicles that are modified by either professional tuners or others that result in a VIN with a WMI number in their name (for example, if a Porsche-based car is remanufactured by RUF and has RUF's WMI W09, it is eligible; but if it has Porsche's WMI, WP0, it is not eligible)

4.pre-1981 vehicles must be made by the original vehicle manufacturer and not modified by either professional tuners or individuals

• the number of vehicles made - also covered in the Production car debate and covered in the above two rules.
• how to treat commercial/industrial vehicles or not. NealeFamily (talk) 23:30, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Private tracks/courses, nothing?

Came here looking for the largest private testing/etc automotive/vehicle track there is, someone care to add? 2600:6C54:4400:C76:B01D:6181:2F1C:6C5E (talk) 10:07, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't know for sure which is the largest but Nürburgring is privately held and I suspect its 25.947 km (current combined circuit) is the largest. Needs verification, of course.  Stepho  talk  13:44, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Highest power by body style

Should we divide "car" to more specific body styles? e.g. "sedan", "hatchback", "coupé", "convertible/cabriolet", "station wagon", etc. 182.30.134.6 (talk) 06:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Largest screen in a production car

New listing/entry for largest screen in a production car. Ford Evos 2021 has 27" screen but it's china exclusive, 17" in Tesla Model S is largest with international sales, Byton M-Byte 48" is in production but no deliveries to customers have been made (as of May 2021) and Mercedes EQS 56" Hyperscreen is actually three separate screens under one glass panel. 118.211.175.35 (talk)

Are you talking about the windscreen (aka windshield in some countries) or the computer display screen? Assuming you mean the computer screen, I see an arms race in the next few years. Being exclusive to China is not a barrier. Multiple screens acting as a single panel are also not a barrier (assuming the joins are practically seamless). No deliveries is a barrier but the article can be updated when (if) deliveries start.  Stepho  talk  10:32, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

See also List of largest machines

@Stepho-wrs: In this revert you asked "Should we also add smallest machines, lightest/heaviest machines, etc ?". That would be fine by me, but those articles do not exist, so there's no particular reason to worry they will clutter up this relatively short "See also" section. I came to this article looking for the largest land vehicles, and it was unclear if "automotive" includes all self-propelled vehicles or not. Turns out it does not, and what I was looking for was at List of largest machines. Since I expect other readers have had the same problem, I added a see also link to make it easier to find that info. Does that make sense? -- Beland (talk) 03:11, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

I've let it rattle around in my head for a day or so. My gut feeling is that it doesn't belong and will lead to link bloat. But I guess we can deal with that in the future - if it happens. I withdraw my objection to it.  Stepho  talk  23:10, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Cool, thanks for pondering that. I've added it back with an annotation that points out it specifically includes land vehicles, so perhaps that will prevent any desire to add links to future lists of small machines that aren't vehicles. 8) -- Beland (talk) 02:28, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Plug-in Hybrid efficiency

What's the metric we should be using here? A range-extended hybrid like the BMW i3 ReX would in practice be more efficient than a hybrid like the Prius PHEV because a greater fraction of the distance it travels would be in EV mode given that it has a greater all-electric range, even though it it less efficient in EV mode than the Prius. Where this gets complicated though is the latest Prius PHEV with 44 miles of range where a significant fraction of the distance driven get by in EV mode. Maybe we just need a disclaimer that it is complicated? 2600:6C64:507F:D378:4CEC:64FC:DA92:4465 (talk) 15:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

All-electric mpg

How can an all-electric vehicle have such a parameter as mpg at all? --95.24.68.61 (talk) 11:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

It seems like it doesn't make sense but "equivalent" is the keyword here. It's just a number that can be used to compared efficiency of different cars. See MPGe and https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a31863350/mpge/  Stepho  talk  11:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)