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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was - kept

Union County Magnet High School

[edit]

Not notable. Not enough students (< 300). Like the bathrooms though.Mandel 14:30, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)

  • Keep: this article is neutral and the school in no way breaks any laws or cause any damage of any sort. And to all of the below messages that claim there is no notability to the article, look up New Jersey Blue Ribon Schools. Magnet has won at least 2 of those awards to my knowledge, and many more from other associations and competitions.
  • Delete: The mission statement and complains are identical to thousands. Nice, new building and school. Ok. Not notable. Geogre 17:20, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Number of students is not an issue. Mark Richards 17:26, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Delete. Notability is. This doesn't cut it. 99.9% of schools schools don't. --Improv 17:53, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Non-notable. RickK 19:03, Oct 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete, with such a small number of students there would need to be some other claim to notability, but none is currently given. Everyking 19:12, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. Is there a clear-cut policy on high schools and grade schools? "Early Delete" can't come soon enough. Go vote for it! — Bill 21:44, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. This article requires a rewrite. The school is notable for a series of court cases made against it by other schools it was competing with. The decitions from these cases confirmed that a county may set up a school that competes with local districts (at least in the state of New Jersey). I'd be willing to work on this. The author(s) simply missed the significance of the school. — User:REwhite 0:07, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • User's only edits are to this page. RickK 06:04, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. What REwhite said! — User:a Lex 0:07, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • This is anon user 68.36.118.199. No one has ever created a User account a Lex. RickK 06:05, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete - Simply to try to counter possible sockpuppet(s). WhisperToMe 02:09, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • I can assure you personally that neither I nor my good friend a Lex are the same person. We both attend the school and know each-other personally. I contributed a little bit to Wikipedia prior to this time, but only joined now to help in the fight to maintain my school's rightful place in this wiki project for which I have the highest reguards. aLex, having been alerted to the situation by me, did the same, as will a significant portion of the school population once they hear about this. I am not an expert on computers, but I believe that you could check our IP addresses and show that we are individuals in that manner. User:REwhite 4:07, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • That would be inappropriate. It is not good practice to solicit new accounts for the purpose of participation in VfD. Votes so gathered will probably be noticed and heavily discounted, and you'll also probably get a bad reputation here for doing it. --Improv 14:52, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • I'm fairly certain that we've all used this site for research or even contributed in the past, though none of us have had accounts prior to this. Besides, knowing these people I wouldn't be suprised if they become regular contributers now that they have figured out how to work the interface. User:REwhite 16:10, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete. UCMHS may turn away 2/3 of its applicants, but Wikipedia is even more selective. -- WOT 02:52, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Although UCMHS is notorious for turning away applicants, it is the same as a college. If you are mad at Magnet for turning away inadiquate aplicants, why don't you stride for the deletion of Harvard or Princeton?
  • Keep. I went to the Magnet and I know lots of people who didn't. Now in college, I have a huge advantage over my peers because of unique kind of education I had at Magnet. It's not just academic, the atmosphere is amazing. If you'd like to base your vote on concrete examples, look at the students. We're a population of former outcasts and members of "gifted and talented" programs. Our SAT scores are impressive and seniors graduate with an entire semester's worth of college credits in Computer Engineering. Our seniors are certified with the ADDA, enabling us to get jobs going into college that some people can't after they already have their degree. It is also possible at Magnet to take some extra college courses and obtain an Associate's Degree before graduating from high school. I even know someone who was accepted into college without having to even start her senior year of high school. Need more examples? Just ask me, I've got millions of them. -- User:eve14 11:15, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • User's only edit is to this page. RickK 06:04, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
    • Comment To those who seriously want the article to be kept: I think that the most effective thing you could do would be to to add good, thorough, well-written information to the article about the lawsuit mentioned by User:REwhite. There are many "elite" schools with academic standards. There are far fewer schools that have been involved in lawsuits that set a statewide legal precedent. Outcome of VfD is determined by rough consensus judged by a sysop, not by a vote count as such. It has occurred to many people that they could muster a group of friends to create accounts in Wikipedia and vote in VfD discussions, and in order to counter this, sysops do not pay much attention to votes cast by users whose only edits to Wikipedia have occurred subsequent to listing on VfD. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 10:33, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Note True, but it also demonstrates another unique aspect of the school. We fought for our existence back in the courts and we continue to fight for our rightful place. The article is now rewritten and will likely continue to be revised by others who attend this school. We aren't just paying lip service to this, we are trying to portray ourselves accuratly and show our significance. I'd advise that those who have stated their views already look over the article again and reconsidder. I'll admit, we are largely new to Wiki. I like what I see and I have contributed to the article on the USS Shenandoah (ZR-1) before I got an account. User:REwhite 14:52, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep: I believe that this description is very inaccurate. This description portrays the school in the wrong way and needs to be rewritten, not deleted. I signed up for an account on this site specifically because of this article. I think that if rewritten this article would be helpful for those applying and looking at UCMHS. I would be willing to help rewrite this article. User:typecaste9 13:20, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • User's only edit is to this page. --Saforrest 12:27, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
    • Well, User:typecaste9, Wikipedia:Be bold and just start editing. As the notice says, you are "welcome to edit this article and improve it" while the VfD discussion is in progress, and a significant number of articles are kept as a result of changes made to them during VfD. However, I would caution that Wikipedia articles must be written from a Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. They should not use the sort of promotional language that would be appropriate in a brochure put out by the school itself. If there is a real body of student opinion that is critical of the school, as suggested in the second paragraph, you probably should not remove that paragraph. You can add balance, you can add facts, but don't try to impose a point of view about the school. Second, and this is much more important, the reason why this article is listed on VfD is that some of us do not feel that the case has been made that the school is notable. The problem is notability, not balance. The best case for notability that has been made so far concerns the lawsuit. Trying working up a good paragraph about that. (From a neutral point of view!) [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 12:51, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete, unless substantial revisions are made to the article to the point that the school is clearly notable (e.g. because of these lawsuits). --Saforrest 12:24, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep:By the way Saforrest, thats why i signed up for wikipedia...to submit a comment on this entry in wikipedia. And rewhite just rewrote it anyways so but I helped him a little to write it. It's much better now than it was and gives amd better description of the school.
    • Unsigned votes are not counted. Well fellas, and what do you think about the rewrite? Mandel 14:08, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep it. Intrigue 17:13, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Comment: If the current version is kept, someone should put cleanup and npov tags on it. It sounds very promotional, and is hardly wikified. No vote from me, this school is a borderline case of notability. -Vina 20:58, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep: The school seems notable enough. DCEdwards1966 21:03, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)
    • I wonder what is more "notable" about this school. There's more info that's all. And I think it's again the "as long as you crammed us with enough facts we give it to you" kind of attitude. IMO this is not a good precedent in Wikipedia, which is trying to match up with encyclopedias like Britannica etc. Mandel 02:47, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep in present form. Borderline-notable school. I think the writeup on the lawsuit is pretty good. "The school has dropped music and arts" seems bizarre to me—I don't think I've heard of a school that has done that outright, but maybe I'm out of touch with what's going on in the brave new world of standardized tests; anyway, that seems notable, though not in a good way. In reference to another school, an editor wrote "Replace the names and dates and it's a suitable article for any school => not notable." That's certainly not true of this article. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 01:32, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • <!-- Being the author of that comment, I'd be inclined to agree, though it still reads a little like hearsay. If someone can back up the matter of the lawsuits (dates, press references, record from the local authority, etc.), then it would put the matter beyond all doubt. Chris 06:59, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • Agreed... I did find one single lone reference online, a Westfield NJ newspaper, reporting on the local school board: "However the ongoing controversial approval of resolution for payment to Union County Magnet High School was argued" and quoting a board of education member as saying "it seems ironic that there are three teachers to teach 25 kids. Parents are using that school (Union County Magnet School) as an escape. The program has a lot of flaws, allowing only selected students to be involved; that is not public education." So its not totally fictional, anyway. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 10:39, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
      • I'm sorry, but I was just barely able to slip doing the rewrite in between class work. If I weren't so swamped with work I'd look up the information and specific references to these cases. I started in the school in the final months of the Linden case, so I remember that one clearly. I'm certain the others are a matter of puvlic record, but I may not be able to get to them for some time. If anybody else is willing to trudge through the non-wiki swampy part of the internet looking for it, please do so. As for it being biased, it was the best I could do as a biased party. If anybody has better ideas or stylistic changes, by all means change it or advise me on how to write better! REwhite 15:12, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC) 16:11, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)
        • Don't worry too much about that. Criticism of the writing style and neutrality of an article are often made in VfD discussions, but they don't really factor in to the decision to delete except in truly extreme cases (when the article is nothing but an utterly one-sided political rant, for example, that "cannot be made NPOV."). Non-neutrality as such is not a reason to delete the article, but a reason to fix it. Issues with writing style are certainly not cause to delete. Keep in mind that articles are deleted only if there is consensus to delete. In the absence of consensus, articles are kept. And consensus is determined by the judgement of a sysop, not by a vote count, although it is often suggested that anything less than 2/3 voting to delete. This is strictly my own personal opinion but at this point it will surprise me if this article is deleted. Since information on the lawsuit does not pop up instantly in an obvious Google search, it would be really nice if, over the coming weeks, you do add a section called == References == and put in the places where you found the facts about the lawsuit. This is just generally good scholarship. Wikipedia encourages editors to do this for every article; see Wikipedia:Cite your sources, but it is not done nearly as much as it should be. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 13:23, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Looks legit. Keep. Cool Hand Luke 06:29, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. RustyCale 11:58, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. But re-write to NPOV. Fascinating to see the depth of resistance to a key aspect of many education reform proposals. Agree size of school not relevant. Chrisvls 15:17, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep

All schools are interesting to some extent, vocational and charter schools in particular. Fascinating article. --Quintucket 23:36, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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