Talk:High school

Comments

Nearly a B Victuallers 20:08, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Info needed on the end of vocational high schools in the US

I was recently told that the US used to have vocational high schools, but they were ended because some people thought they were racist. However the elimination of vocational high schools has left poor people without the best means to rise out of poverty so they could build a good life and have their kids go to college. Did the US used to have public vocational schools? If anyone knows anything about this topic, please add it to the article. Really it could even get a wikipedia entry all on its own, as there's a WHOLE lot to know about the topic.

Whether or not all public vocational high schools in the US have been eliminated I don't know, but I do know that there exists vocational educational programs in public high schools. So vocational education isn't dead.69.29.207.109 (talk) 02:17, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

Old comments and discussion

Should we really include the "It is widely beleived..." paragraph? It is purely speculative and not at all factual. --Frecklefoot —The preceding comment was added 6:46, 15 October 2002

Moved from article:

"(It may be parallel to British 'College'? (as opposed to 'University')?)

It is widely believed by persons age 14-34 that high school is the worst part of one's life, and widely believed by persons age 35 and over that high school is the best part of one's life."

Vicki Rosenzweig —The preceding comment was added 01:38, 20 October 2002

Singapore

The term "high school" isn't used in Singapore except for a small number of schools and those are private schools

United Kingdom

Likewise in the UK. I can't speak for Wales, N. Ireland or Scotland, but it is not a phrase I often hear in England, where 'Secondary School' seems the most prevelant.Markb 09:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

That is a strange statement considering that the school I went to had the suffix High Scool in its name. Now if you are considering the general class of post Primary education then you may be correct.

In Scotland secondary education is almost always referred to as secondary school. Many schools are however called "... High School" but you would never speak about it as high school.

In the UK, schools with "high school" in their name are not uncommon, but (in England at least) I have never heard the term used to describe a level of education. Certainly the DfES do not use the term anywhere. In fact it reading this article it looks like the UK content was written by someone who has never been through education in the UK or worked in it. Unless someone can convince me that I'm thinking of some other UK, I'm going to move all the UK related content in this page to Secondary education in the UK and replace it with "the term high school is rarely used in the UK". TomViza 23:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

High school is used throughout Manchester 80.2.18.139 (talk) 18:28, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Where I live, in the northwest, it's usual for them to be called high schools, at least colloquially. 92.12.157.20 (talk) 22:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

What I am most worried about is where it says "most" students stay on till 6th form and "most" secondary schools have a 6th form attached. It wouldn't suprise me if neither of these were true, where are they getting this information?--Havfunonline2 (talk) 12:39, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

This section lists Herefordshire, then gives the name of a school in St Albans, which is in Hertfordshire, which is linked to an American school of the same name. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.80.230.138 (talk) 15:37, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

While it is most common to refer to this type of school as a "secondary school", it is very common for secondary schools in England to have "High School" in their names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.166.231 (talk) 17:52, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetization

Does wikipedia use alphabetization as a standard for structuring the arrangement of names, such as places in these article headlines?Weaponofmassinstruction 23:55, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I agree, these links seem ludicrous, surely if you wanted information regarding that country you would search for it. The links are irrelivent and not required in the article, they also make it look somewhat of a mess, and to my knowledge this is not common practice on Wikipedia. I will remove them. -Hamdev Guru 20:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

U.S. vs. State law

The section on United States high schools contained references to 'U.S. Law', especially regarding compulsory attendance laws. I've edited this section to clarify that all attendance laws originate with the states, not the federal government. Each state sets its own ages for compulsory attendance ages and maximum ages, although there is remarkable consistency. This seems like a minor change, but most of the other countries in this article have national education systems, and the United States doesn't. I feel this is an important distinction. --BucInExile--66.194.217.220 00:38, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Secondary school (in US at least)?

How can High School be secondary school if it is the third part of school, e.g. Elementary, Middle School, High School. --169.139.185.1 11:39, 10 May 2005 (UTC) [[File:--71.72.174.248 (talk) 21:45, 17 February 2011 (UTC)Example.jpghh]] It is most likely due to the fact that it is called that in britain, and america could have copied it, but I do not know.--Sstabeler 10:20, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Traditionally, grades 1-8 (ages 6-14) were considered "primary school." Middle school is a 20c innovation. Grades 9-12 (ages 14-18) were considered "secondary school." Postgraduate education (university, community college, specialized art schools, etc.) are considered "tertiary" education. Drfryer 04:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

use of 'Year'

I do not understand the constant references to 'year 10', 'year 12', nor 'grade'. The age of the children my be more relevant along with number of preceeding years of formal education? Markb 11:37, 16 May 2045 (UTC)

in the UK, year refers to the number of years in school, starting in september, and ending sometime in july since the pupil started key stage one, and so is a reflection of how much schooling a person has had so far, regardless of age, while I cannot speak for the american system, the grades in america are roughly equivalent to the years in britain.--Sstabeler 10:13, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Furthermore, in the UK, as a general guide, by knowing the Year someone is in adding 5 to that number will produce the age of that person. Eg, a Year 10 pupil will be 15 by the end of the academic year. This is because Key Stage 1, and compulsory education, starts when the child is 5, Year 1, and therfore aged 6 at the end of that academica year. - Hamdev Guru 20:39, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Just think of it like Kindergarten is Year One, 1st grade is Year Two, 2nd grade is Year Three... and 12th Grade is Year Thirteen. That's the easiest way to convert UK Years to USA grades. Stephe1987 00:49, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Because We in the UK have 1 more year of school than the US. But your right, a common system should be used throughout the article--Havfunonline2 (talk) 12:42, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

In Australia (compulsory) schooling starts with Kindergarten, then goes through 1st class - 6th class (sometimes referred to as 1st grade etc) - then in High School becomes Year 7 to Year 12. Just to confuse everything!Garrie 03:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

"Typical high school students"?

Those are not typical American high school students, at least in my (fairly recent) experience. That's a pretty offensive picture, don't you think? Moreover, and perhaps more to the point, it has nothing whatsoever to do with high school.

i agree, and think it was most likely vandalism, the user that did this also made a similarly explicit edit to the cheerleading aritcle. possibly best course of action would be to remove from article and then list on IFD? i do not think it belongs in any articles.--Sstabeler 10:18, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

American high schools paragraph

I deleted the paragraph that started "Although not considered fact...", based on the premise theories should cite who is saying them. The paragraph was pretty general, saying things that go without saying, or are too general to apply to the whole country, or apply anywhere. Some sort of revised re-inclusion would be fine. Also, talking of college standards going up, may well be true, but that's an assertion of fact that must be supported (and defined), since some perceive the opposite. It's also hard to discuss such a thing, without talking of specific time periods for comparisons (are they higher than they were 5 years ago or 20 years ago). --rob 09:49, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The bit about when kids graduate. "...the year of their 18th birthday..." That is a little long. It's easier to say "Students usually graduate at age 17 or 18." or something similar. Oh, and those cut off dates don't apply to any of the schools I went to. --Bee 04:45, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it possible to include...

...sections about high school courses, life in high school, history of high schools, etc? I know it would be difficult as high school just doesn't mean the same thing in different countries. But, this article seems rather stubby and incomplete at this moment... Orage 21:47, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

high school sucks. Supernova444 (talk) 18:16, 12 May 2011 (UTC)supernova444

American High School Photo

The photo of the high school in class should be replaced. 1) From the layout of the classroom, it looks like a college classroom. 2) Have several "high school students" age 30+.

Must classrooms look the same all the time? We need to change in times. Teens grow up faster than before, so they may look older than their age. --Terence Ong 10:14, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

LOL. That's funny. "Teenagers" with male pattern baldness.  :-p There seem to be familiar faces in the back row. VT classroom?

Ages of American High School Graduation

I would like to point out that the ages of high school graduation that are listed on here are incorrect for at least two states, which are two of the ones with the largest populations:

• In California, students born between January 1 and November 30 graduate in the year of their 18th birthday. Those born in December graduate in the year of their 19th Birthday. For example, the kids who will graduate from high school this year, unless they started school a year late or failed a grade, were born between December 1, 1987 and November 30, 1988.
  • Children born December 1-3 also graduate in the year of their 18th birthday, they begin Kindergarten at age 4.5 and graduate almost 6 months before they turn 18!
  • California has considered several times changing the date for the Kindergarten age cutoff to September 1 but the measure is repeatedly defeated.
• In New York, all students graduate in the year of their 18th birthday. So everyone who was born in 1988 is graduating this year (unless they failed or their parents made them wait a year to start school).
• It is also common for kids with birthdays between December and February to start school a year early if they can read. I am from California and my cousin who was born in December 1994 is in 6th grade. I also have some friends who are first-year college students who were born in February 1988. And Dakota Fanning was born in February 1994 and she's in 7th grade this year.
  • Dakota Fanning probaby has had private tutors for much of her professional life and skipped a grade due to the personal academic attention.
• It is equally as common for parents of kids with birthdays in October or later to have their kids wait a year to start school. In my sisters' Girl Scout troop, there are two girls, both in 3rd grade: one was born October 11, 1996 and the other on the same day in 1997. Stephe1987 01:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Technically, the New York part is a little flawed. While it is true now that all students graduate in the year of their 18th birthday, that has only recently changed. It used to be the same as California; there are two kids at our local school who were born December 1, 1987 that are graduating this year, yet they have never failed nor did their parents wait a year.

• In Colorado although there is a state cutoff date, individual school districts have the option for earlier cutoff dates. In some rural school districts in northeastern Colorado the cutoff date is June 1st.

Random unsigned comments

is it me or the "high school" seems to be a painful and terrible experience for almost everyone basically everywhere? in my country everybody hates it and eventually drops it. i saw an american saying that "almost every kid in USA wants to pull a columbine" and so on. is it possible to talk about how bad high school can be and give some motives? i don't know. i really think it sucks because you're been shaped for the little box called "college" where you become one more mr. something until the day you die. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.10.55.48 (talk • contribs) 12:03, March 25, 2006 (UTC)

WHY is there no info on the HISTORY (like when the 1st one opened up in the U.S.) of High School!!?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 146.74.230.249 (talk • contribs) 02:00, April 12, 2006 (UTC)

Just some literal translation for "ensino médio" from portuguese to english, if that matters for native englih speakers. Ensino = education. Médio = could be middle, but in this sense is "between elementary school and college or let's say, university level". Colegio = school, false friend for college. Colegial = don't know, but could be some historical reason, like calling "colegio" the secondary schools, and elementary schools something else. Ginasio = don't know, could be related to schools that have gymnasiums, or just another false friend word. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.102.155.157 (talk) 20:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Canada

The first line of the Canada section reads: "Secondary schooling in Canada differs depending on the province in which one resides. Normally it follows the American pattern"

Are we expected to know what the american pattern is? Ironcorona 04:01, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that the dropout rate was only about 10%, with the highest dropout rate being 13% in Manitoba; a total fallacy, for example Ontario has a dropout rate of nearly 40%. The Canadian Education System is rapidly falling into ruin, and I think this article should reflect that.

I don't know what you're talking about. Dropout rates have decreased since 1991 rapidly. Totally fallacy? You're soure please? I have mine right here. Ontario has the third lowest dropout rate of 9.1% (as you said, Manitoba has the highest of 13%). The dropout rate of the past 2 years is 10.1% which is considerbly low compared to other countries out there. As of 2004-2005 (lastest records avalible, dropout rates were only 9.8%. Statistics Canada

CuffX 05:08, 17 Nov 2006 (UTC)

I just changed all of the ordinals to their names, which is correct grammar. Also, it is my understanding that most provinces don't use the terms Junior and Senior to refer to a grade-level, but rather to the school itself: Junior High; Senior High. Finally, I don't know of any province that says ninth grade, etc. Common usage is "grade nine", etc. I'd like to know if the original author has some information to back this claim. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:32, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I've never heard of any high school in Canada using 'Junior' or 'Senior' or any of those weird names, just grade 9, 10, 11, 12- 'Junior High School' typically refers to grades 6-8 with High School, or Senior High, referring to 9-12. 198.103.195.30 (talk) 15:23, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I also have never heard of this weird way of referring to the different grades ("Intermediate" for Grade 10? - lol), yet when I removed the offending text, it was immediately reverted! These bizarre phrases are not used in any part of Canada that I have ever heard of! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.177.227.43 (talk) 22:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I've removed that section as the ref was a Wikipedia mirror. --NeilN ^{talk ♦ contribs} 22:42, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I removed "(except in Quebec)" because there are many English language High Schools in Quebec. Tanneryvillage (talk) 16:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

High school students image

The picture is terrible, very few high schools in the United States look like that. Illuminus

I agree. The picture has adults mixed in with students and doesn't appear to be in an average classroom. Also, in my school and those I've visited, desks are usually bigger than the ones pictured. If anyone has a better picture that could be used, I think it would be a good improvement. Brian Night 23:36, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

While these students are in a school building, it is misleading to have this on the page here, as many readers will come away with the impression that these students are actually "going to school" that is they are in a classroom learning the normal curriculum. This was, instead, an exceptional event not representative of what a "school" is like in general, and in an auditorium, not representative of a school classroom. This image should be omitted from this article. (This comment was added before the above comments were noticed and moved to this section.) -- Centrx 01:58, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah. That picture looks nothing like a real high school. Plus they're all wearing weird glasses. Ilikefood 20:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I went to a private school and it did, in fact, look like this.

Rzrscm 12:25, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree. It appears to be a screen cap from TV show Fast Times. I'm removing it. Wl219 04:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

History of high schools in america and the world

I suggest an article on when did it start in this country, 4 years, back then in 19th century there was something like grade school 8 years, but next 4 years was college. And similar conept was elsewhere.

This article is missing the critical history of transition from pre-WW I "academies" which trained teens only for college = college prep schools; to new schools which offered vocational subjects during and after WWI which were then called "high schools." While they did not give up their original goal of educating teens to pass rigid entrance exams for college which took only the brightest and best educated, but added the additional role of training typists, stenos, bookkeepers, wood workers, welders, factory workers, etc. Students that definitely would not go on to college = the majority of their new enrollment. This again transitioned in the 1950s on to schools which supposedly attempted to again move all students into college, the latter supposedly a new goal for "every man." However, the old standards had been lost. Colleges no longer required the classical student to be educated in Greek (both dialects) and Latin, the old classics, etc.

So the standards for secondary schools slumped after WWI and never did resume their former high standards. The history ought to be recorded somewhere. From this article, a reader would suppose that high schools were invented out of whole cloth! Student7 (talk) 04:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Grade schools and high schools years (duration)

Well guys, we need to find out, when number of years changed in usa and worldwide, i do know community colleges came in 1901, but was grade school always 8 or more, we are trying to get this straight and it is of importance.

Title of page

Is this article supposed to be about high schools or secondary education in general? There is already an article on secondary education and it seems that much of what is included here should perhaps go there instead. The words high school are only used in certain countries to denote the final stage of compulsory education so perhaps it might be best to confine this article to those countries where this terminology is used. At the moment this article seems to be developing into a review of secondary education worldwide as though the words high school and secondary school are synonymous which they are not. At the moment secondary school redirects to high school when in fact it should be the other way round. A high school is a type of secondary school. They are not one and the same thing. Dahliarose 09:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem of the title of this article has now been resolved. I've now completed the removal of all the UK and other material on secondary education to the secondary education page. It made no sense whatsoever to have these sections grouped under a page entitled high school when the term is not used in these countries to describe secondary education. Dahliarose 14:42, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Divert

I've now discovered that Secondary School was being diverted to High School which made no sense whatsoever. This presumably explains why this article has developed in the way it has. As I've explained above the two terms are not interchangeable (or at least they might be in North America but not elsewhere). I've now removed the divert and provided a brief explanation of the word secondary school. I will move all the content relating to secondary schools (eg. the whole of the United Kingdom] from this current high school page to the secondary school page unless anyone has any strong objections. This high school page should surely only provide an explanation of what a high school is focusing only on those countries which use the words high school. The other alternative is to retitle this page "Secondary school" and divert "High school" to "Secondary School" but I think sufficient countries use the words high school for it to warrant a page in its own right. Dahliarose 11:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

You have got it wrong about UK. High school is the normal use, not secondary. Please don't remove it. --Majorly 12:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whereabouts in the UK do you live? I live in England and have two children at secondary school here. I've never ever come across anyone calling a secondary school a high school in England. Dahliarose 12:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Northwest. --Majorly 12:39, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Whereabouts in the Northwest do you live? I can't think of a single school in the northwest of England which calls itself a high school. Can you give some examples?

Oftsted categorises schools as secondary schools not high schools:

[1]

As does the DFES:

[2]

I would be interested to see if you can provide a single reference to show that high school is the normal way of describing an English secondary school. Dahliarose 12:52, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at List of schools in the North West of England for a huge selection. I counted two that call themselves "secondary". --Majorly 16:42, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

But those are the names of the schools not a way of describing the category. All the official bodies, eg OFSTED and the DFES, refer to the places where pupils go for the final stage of their compulsory education as secondary schools. Some secondary schools have the words grammar in their name, some have the word comprehensive in their name and some have the word high in their name. Some don't have any of these words. However they are all categorised as secondary schools. A lot of schools in the north-west do seem to call themselves high schools but if you look at most of the other regions that is not necessarily the case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_schools_in_England

The terminology must follow that used by the official bodies not the regional use in one small part of the country. If OFSTED and the DFES change their categories and use high school instead of secondary school then you would have a point. Look at the comments in the section above on the United Kingdom and you will see that other people have made the same points as me. Dahliarose 17:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I answered your comment though: you said "I can't think of a single school in the northwest of England which calls itself a high school" and there are plenty. I totally agree that the category is secondary, but the names are more often "high". I'm happy enough with how it is in the article, so I'll leave it at that. --Majorly 21:30, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad we reached a compromise. To be honest being a southerner I don't know the names of many schools in the north of England. Manchester Grammar School was the only one which immediately sprang to mind and I can't imagine that they would be very pleased at being classified as a high school! As far as I can establish the usage of "high school" seems to differ and I think the Americans seem to use the phrase as a generic word to describe all their senior schools (which is why this article has gone off on a tangent) whereas in this country only some secondary schools (and especially as I now know those in the north-west!) actually call themselves high schools. We live and learn! Dahliarose 23:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, in many places, the term 'High School' has a specific meaning in the UK, albeit differing depending on authority. In places such as Leicestershire it refers to a type of middle school catering for pupils aged 10 to 14 (i.e. Year 6 - 9, parts of KS2 and KS3). Probably not a significant enough number to mention in the article, but noteworthy all the same. Tafkam 21:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Hochschule, hogeschool, etc

The point of the paragraph In the non-English speaking world there exist the words, Hochschule, hogeschool, hõjskola, højskole... is that 'High School' doesn't have to mean 'High School' other languages. Hoch, hoge, höj, høj and høg all translate to 'high' and Schule, skola, skole is 'school'. But Hochschule is German for Vocational university while gymnasium is German for High School.

I consider it relevant to know that a word for word translation in this case isn't right. A list of what high schools are called around the world in the 4000+ languages there exist is in my view not relevant.Aastrup 10:50, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

This article should confine itself to the definition and usage of the phrase "high school". It is relevant to include words in other languages which appear to translate as high school. A gymnasium is a specific type of secondary school in Germany but it cannot be translated into English as high school. As with the French word lycee, there is not really an English language equivalent. A gymnasium is I believe more like an English grammar school. Dahliarose 12:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Oberschule etc would seem to be institutions of secondary education. This is true for all the examples that I could find, e.g. Education in Germany. It was possible to believe that these institutions were of tertiary education in the old version. Aastrup 14:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Generally this section is so full of mistakes (højskole is not considered tertiary education in Denmark, but rather a voluntary vocational programme hardly giving any academic qualifications; Realschule in Germany is not a vocational alternative to the Germain Gymnasium, but grades 5-10 of primary education - approximately equivalent of the UK secondary school, the last half of folkeskolen in Denmark, and approximately equivalent to the Swedish Högstadiet) that I will suggest it to be deleted completely. It does not make sense to try to translate the American term 'high-school' into other languages literally or equivalently - rather it would make sense to translate it into grades or children's age-ranges and find the terms equivalent for these ages in other languages. Bfjohannsen 22:30, 2 June 2007

I've moved most of the definitions to the secondary school page as most of the terms were direct translations of secondary school rather than high school and were completely irrelevant here. Gymnasium for instance cannot be translated as high school - if anything the closest English language equivalent is grammar school. If any of the remaining definitions are incorrect please feel free to amend or delete as appropriate. Dahliarose 23:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Simplify opening paragraph?

There seems to be a fair amount of contention about the opening gambit to this article. I wonder if it's worth really simplifying the opener to a broad strokes statement of the term's use, and moving the specifics which currently appear there (e.g. UK references, non-English, etc.) into their own sub-sections further down (with perhaps UK stuff as a country entry, and an entry below all the nations about the language issue? That would lead the opening paragraph to give a very broad, simple understanding for those who want a brief intro , without losing the other content. Any thoughts? Tafkam 18:47, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

The opening paragraph could well be tidied up. However, what we don't want to end up with is a whole section devoted to secondary education in the UK as this section has now been moved to the main article secondary education. The UK usage needs to be explained somewhere to avoid any confusion. There was an assumption in earlier versions of the article that the term "high school" in the American sense was in global usage which is of course not the case. Dahliarose 16:33, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I was thinking that a UK section would be a brief: we don't really use the term, where we do it's synonomous with secondary education in most case, see 'secondary education' or similar. Tafkam 20:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you meant to say that the term is not synonymous with secondary education in the UK! Dahliarose 20:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Ahem! Yes... nothing like missing out the key word! Tafkam 21:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

US content moved from intro

A long section has been added to the intro which as far as I can establish relates only to the USA with information about Junior High Schools, etc. I've moved this content to the US section but some further tidying up is probably still required. There seems to be a certain amount of duplication at present but I don't know enough about the subject to make too many changes Dahliarose 22:07, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Capitalization

There is inconsistent capitalization of high school, High school, and High School. Which is correct?

It should be lower case, ie, high school, unless it is part of a school name. I've done a quick find and replace to fix it. Dahliarose 14:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

US high schools

In the recent edits a large section of interesting and useful content about the different types of American high schools was deleted. This whole section is a complete muddle. I've had a go at revamping it and have restored the deleted content which, as a non-American, I found interesting and relevant. I suggest that such major changes should be discussed on the talk page first. Dahliarose 12:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Alternative schools are for BAD students MUST have a source. There is an alternative school article. People can click on the link for more information. It sounds so repetitive to put information about vocational schools, alternative schools when they already have an article for them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MSerje (talk • contribs) 18:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

There seem to be two different articles one at Alternative high school and another at Alternative school. I don't know anything about these schools in the US and can't comment on the accuracy or otherwise of either article. As a non-American I think it is useful to have short statements about the various types of US high schools. By all means change the section on alternative high schools and add appropriate references but I see no reason to delete large amounts of legitimate referenced text. Dahliarose 19:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

So much information on U.S. high school but so little on all the other countries? 67.34.102.46 23:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

student

I ask f all student in highschool shall be 5years??????????????/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.230.102 (talk) 10:55, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

TOO BIIIIIG!!!

Right, this page is just getting stupidly long.

In essence, it's just a further clarification on secondary education and as far as I'm concerned, this page should only deal with the usage of the term "High School" in various countries. If it isn't called "High School", it doesn't belong here -- take it to secondary education.

Right now we have three (3) articles covering the same ground, but often from different authors and not always consistently: this one, secondary school and secondary education. This is an unsupportable state of affairs and should be remedied as soon as possible.

I'll start moving stuff, but it's a hell of a lot of work, so I'd appreciate it if others would help by just shifting the odd section every now and then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prof Wrong (talk • contribs) 10:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The main article should be secondary education. High school is mostly an American term. I'll have a go at moving a few bits and pieces as and when I have time. Dahliarose (talk) 17:34, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree as well. The High school article should only cover countries where the secondary school is called "high school", or specifically deal with the US secondary school system. However, there is already such an article, so this one, and also Secondary school should probably just be merged with Secondary education. Thomas Blomberg (talk) 14:09, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

huh?

Are those just random countries in the subheaders? or do they do they have higher importance to this article than countries not listed? or is it just because no one has gotten around to adding what high schools are in other countries. but if this is true, we couldn't possibly add all countries, could we? with this said, is it wrong of me to add a section about Romanian high schools?  :) thanks --207.177.83.158 (talk) 17:10, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Edit - I saw the above comment, so I'll guess I'll be adding info of Romania to the education secondary article. if properly cited, is this OK? 207.177.83.158 (talk) 17:12, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

This article is only supposed to be about the usage of the term "high school" which is not used consistently around the world. The main article is Secondary education. If the term high school is used in Romania then something should be added here. Otherwise the content should go into the secondary education article. Dahliarose (talk) 23:04, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Education in Brazil (Brazilian Portuguese)

I would like to call your attention to Brazilian Portuguese taught in Brazil. Actually we don't study Brazilian Portuguese Languange inside the classroom, but a pattern of language closest to european portuguese than to our everyday language. Take a looke at the practical examples below, just to have an idea: ("Tell me the truth. I don't wanna see you lying to me"): PT-BR (everyday language): "Me diz a verdade. Não quero que você minta pra mim" PT-BR (formal language taught at school): "Diga-me a verdade..." --- ("We could say that things are getting worse") PT-BR (everyday language): "A gente poderia dizer que as coisas vão de mal a pior..." PT-BR (formal language taught at school): "Nós poderíamos dizer que as coisas vão de mal a pior..." or "Poder-se-ia dizer que as coisas vão de mal a pior..." (may sound pedant!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gpr19 (talk • contribs) 12:38, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

This article should ONLY contain school systems that are called "high school"

This article is a mess. The intention in the beginning was obviously an article describing those secondary school systems around the world that are called "high school". Don't ask me why someone felt a need for it, as the name for a country's secondary education is pretty irrelevant, and as there are already two other articles where all this information could fit in: Secondary school and Secondary education. Both those articles already have sections describing the secondary education in various countries, including what that those school systems are called.

However, if there is a need for a separate article listing secondary school systems called "high school", it should only list such systems. But since the article was started, various contributors have added sections describing the secondary education in country after country, even when those sections clearly state that the term "high school" isn't used in that country.

Those sections don't belong here, and should be moved to either Secondary school or Secondary education and if necessary be merged with existing sections in those articles describing these school systems. Thomas Blomberg (talk) 00:30, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. A long time ago I did revamp this article and move all the country sections where the term high school is not used to the secondary education article but lots of new sections now seem to have crept in. If you have time do feel free to move/merge those sections. There is a need for an article to define the meaning of high school as the usage varies considerably around the world which can sometimes create confusion. Dahliarose (talk) 12:43, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Articles about colleges are not the right place for articles and information about high schools.                     ~Rayvn  15:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RayvnEQ (talk • contribs)

Spelling of high school

There seems to be a lot of confusion on the Internet regarding the correct spelling of high school. "High school" yields 1,150,000,120 results upon a Google search whereas "highschool" returns 52,000,000 results. I can understand if people are using the word as an adjective to differentiate "high school students," those school students who are high, from "highschool student," those who are in high school. My understanding, however, is that the adjectival form should be hyphenated. Is this a new trend in the English language that I haven't been aware of? It's hard to write off to mistakes or ignorance with modern, often automated, spell checking.--75.137.4.80 (talk) 20:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Modern, automated spellchecking is notoriously unreliable, often coming from Microsoft and or otherwise not to be depended on. "highschool" run together is a sign of simple illiteracy. There are, however, sound stylistic arguments as to whether adjectival use of "high school" should or should not be hyphenated (I lean to the latter myself). --Orange Mike | Talk 20:48, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

This would be because 10-year-olds who were born after 1998 and are therefore notoriously incapable of typing like human beings and sometimes are literally unaware of basic obviousness and "don't know what a vowel is" at the age of 22 have started using the Internet... this has been going on for nearly a decade, did you seriously just now notice?                     ~Rayvn  15:10, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 January 2014

Please remove this page from my Facebook page. This is not my high school nor did I teach at this high school. Thank you, Jude Johnson

Irishpiper65 (talk) 22:26, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

• Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. Technical 13 (talk) 01:31, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Use in Belgium and The Netherlands.. way off.

Not only does the paragraph not explain the "Hogeschool" (literal translation) system that provides Associate and Bachelor degrees, the information it provides about secondary education is wrong in some key points. Since I can't directly edit, I thought I might sum it up here.

Children are required to attend school from 6 to 18 in Belgium and 5 to 18 in The Netherlands or until they attain a specific level of education (BE: any secondary education, NL: HAVO, VWO or a level 2 MBO). See Dutch government website on 'leerplicht' and Flemish regional government's page on the same subject. Not relevant for Hogeschool, but faulty info in the article nontheless.

Dutch MBO is not considered school for the first two years, it is always considered school (unlike a "Hogeschool", that functions as a University in terms of application, funding etc).

Now I don't know exactly how the Flemish equivalent of Hogeschool/High-school is used, but i'll sum up how it works in the Netherlands from the lowest level up until Hogeschool (usually translated as "University of Applied Sciences"). I'll skip internal stuff on VMBO and MBO, basically VMBO level determines MBO starting leve and you can always go up a MBO level(1-4) if you want to spend the time.

MBO level 4 provides access to almost all(1) Hogeschool Associate (120 ECTS) and Bachelor (240 ECTS) programs. Associate degrees are more of a technicality, unknown to employers and unused in most programs, but they exist. Completing the first year (also known as Propedeuse) of a Hogeschool program grants access to almost all(1) University Bachelor programs.

1)Additional requirements may be set, usually involving math or language courses attended.

Hogescholen (and Universities) must offer access to their Associate and Bachelor programs to potential students aged 21 and up via 'Colloquium Doctum'. Here's some more info from a Dutch University in English on that subject, including a reference to the article of Dutch law about 'Colloquium Doctum'. The same system is often used when potential students lack certain courses from previous studies.

Regarding the article as a whole, it seems to lack sources overall, I feel it should be open for editing or otherwise overhauled to apply only to the term "high school" and it's literal translations, redirecting to articles about secondary/higher education if needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.171.32.96 (talk) 13:07, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Is high school in comics a valid category? About half of super hero's are teenagers.

I think this is as valid a category as zoos in fiction; these are both settings that are only really told by specific kind of stories. Teen and animal adventure. CensoredScribe (talk) 19:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Category:Fictional schools and its subcategory Category:Superhero schools already exist. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Teenaged superheros are not fictional schools. They might be fictional high school students and or fictional teenagers. In many cases, however, those will not be defining characteristics. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:48, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Ages for students in high school

Starting to feel the high school students look like and feel like 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27 years old (or maybe older). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.244.204.161 (talk) 10:20, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

England Academic Year Start Date

There is an assertion on the page that a child born in the summer months in England (and by extension Wales?) would be part of the yeargroup starting the following September. This is not the case. The academic year in England and Wales stats on the 1st September and all children born before that date belong to the previous academic year. There have been multiple stdies on the effects of age on education which have found that children born in August in England and Wales are ast a significant disadvantage to their peers born in September - December, who are 9-11 months older whilst being taught the same concepts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.185.177.239 (talk) 01:02, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes someone was confused in writing that sentence. I've removed it. Dbfirs 01:06, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Important note regarding page move

Note that all of the comments above this post were previously at Talk:High school, which has been moved to this talk page (link) per the page move of high school to this title (diff). North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 08:51, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

• This page has been moved back to Talk:High school. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:37, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I propose that high school be merged into secondary school. I think that the content in the "high school" article can easily be explained in the context of "secondary school". Article editor (talk) 00:06, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

• Merge - Yes, someone will need to do quite a bit of work to do the merge, but I support the proposal. Dbfirs 00:56, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
• Merge - Looking at the number of times secondary school gets mentioned in the article on high school I would agree. I support the proposal. 🍺 Antiqueight ^chat 15:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
• Merge - I also support a merge for the above reasons. — Quoth (talk) 11:24, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
• Merge - It's clear that high schools are secondary schools. Meters (talk) 00:14, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• A discussion regarding this merge is occurring at Talk:Secondary school § Revert merger of Secondary school and High school. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 14:39, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Split

No longer appropriate- to inspire correction I have changed the redirect.WP:BOLD Please correct and fix as needed.ClemRutter (talk) 12:15, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

High school is linked in several templates, introducing links-to-dabs into about 1000 articles. (List: [3]). These may take a while to clean up. Certes (talk) 00:37, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Wait... High School (big S) redirects to the generic Secondary school but High school (small S) redirects to a disambiguation of works called "High School"? I'll stop fixing until things settle down, in case I make them worse. Templates where I've made changes that may need to be reverted:

• {{High schools in the United States}}
• {{Montreal Secondary Schools}}
• {{Toronto High Schools}}

- Certes (talk) 00:51, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

• I have reverted the redirect change. First, it violates WP:MALPLACED; a "Foo" page can not point to a "Foo (disambiguation)" page as this misleads the software (and readers) into thinking that the "Foo" title is a primary topic article. The correct procedure in this case is always to file a WP:Requested move to rename the "Foo (disambiguation)" page to the "Foo" title. Such a request requires some reasonable evidence that the existing target of the redirect is not the primary topic of the term. Second, never change a redirect to point to a disambiguation page without first fixing all incoming links, or you will seriously give the disambiguators heart attacks. bd2412 T 02:47, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your attention and making the issue live again. So how do you or we resolve the mess. We had a situation where 'apples was merged in to fruit' but the article has moved on and there is not a semblance of similarity. We have an open split discussion- that no-one has contributed to in months. The High School article was a one paragraph stub- that was attracting fluff! Is the way forward to mv to High school disamb page to High school, making it a redirect. Copy in the former stub text (not the list which now exists elsewhere as a separate article). Can we rewrite the High school article from a purely K-12 American perspective, and leave see also to exceptional use elsewhere. I am happy to see it all discussed here- I am not happy to see the issue ignored. ClemRutter (talk) 08:42, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

What are the best destinations for (a) "High School" and (b) "High school"? WP:Article titles and WP:Disambiguation suggest that if there's a primary topic (PT) we should take the reader there; if not then to a dab page. In both cases, I think it's clear that the only candidate for PT is the type of school. I can't find a Wikipedia article on that exact subject but it's covered well in Secondary school. If this topic is primary then we should keep the existing primary redirects to Secondary school. If not then we should move High school (disambiguation) to High school, and redirect High School to it, but only after mending all the links that would break.

Is the topic primary? I think it's much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought and has substantially greater enduring notability but others may disagree, especially for the version with capital S. Certes (talk) 11:11, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I agree High school looks like the primary article. Particularly when you have templates line :*{{High schools in the United States}}. It was a top importance article when it was merged wayback. The way forward seems to be to write the article! I always back off at this point as it is an exclusively US topic, and I concentrate on places I know- but if no-one else is willing to be WP:BOLD then I'll open the sandbox and get started. Google 'History of High schools in America' and you will see we are spoilt for choice. Can I leave it to you guys to tx and fix the links etc when it is viable.ClemRutter (talk) 17:26, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Ready to reverse the merge

Process of writing an article on High schools(humour intended)

All the arguments that have been made seem to agree that a split would be a good idea- but there is no material. Being that their is no material we must look for the most suitable redirect. And the result has pleased noone. Please now look at the High School/sandbox. Is this what we need? If so, can someone who knows the procedure mv the text over to the High school page.

From the pages I have seen with a link, this article answers all the questions found. I have run a B-check on it

Making it a B

1. Referenced inline- yes
2. Coverage- yes- though it needs to be scrutinised by a local
3. Structure- yes
4. Well written prose- Mmmm but better than most articles I have written
5. Supporting images and material- no
6. Approachable- yes

It would be nice if we can have it live for the new term (September)- (for a new fresh group of Freshmen to target). I need some help from people with experience of running a K-12 school. --ClemRutter (talk) 21:23, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

The title of your new article should be High School (United States) since that is what it is about. Dbfirs 06:54, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the response- where it eventually ends up is up to the community. The point is to give a target for all the wlinks to High School. I don't actually think that (United States)is needed as it is such a US K-12 concept- but it is up to the community. The advantage of using High School or High school is that none of the links need to be changed and no further redirects set up. Two projects have classified High School as a top importance article- so stick with the name. In the case of most English kids, media and High school musical make them connect High School with the US school system, and not the local school down the road that has frequently changed it name- School- HS- Comprehensive- Secondary Modern and the current favourite Academy. To me there are two processes- clean up the redirections- then get the name right. ClemRutter (talk) 08:19, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your opinion. I suppose we could put a disambiguation link at the top for those readers not under US influence. The Britannica article is High school (American education). As you suggest, we'll see what the community thinks. Dbfirs 09:09, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

What is a high school and how does it relate to a secondary school? Internationally, I would say that the terms are similar, with the difference between them being less than the difference between national education systems. For example, Scottish high schools bear more resemblance to English secondary schools than to American high schools. Everything significant that can be said about high schools internationally also applies to secondary schools . However, there is plenty to be written about American high schools, so that should probably be the topic of the article. High school (United States) therefore sounds like a good title. The new article also deserves a prominent place in High school (disambiguation). The question then is whether

1. High School and High school should continue to redirect to Secondary school, mentioning the new article in its {{redirect}} hatnote, or
2. we should move High school (disambiguation) to High school, and redirect High School there, after diverting their incoming links.

I'm leaning towards 1. but I don't think the answer is obvious. Certes (talk)

To answer a few questions directly. What is a high school and how does it relate to a secondary school?

A secondary school is both an organization that provides secondary education and the building where this takes place. Some secondary schools provide both lower secondary education and (upper) secondary education (levels 2 and 3 of the ISCED scale) per Secondary school

A K-12 High school covers the age range 14-18 (level 3 of the ISCED scale) So a K-12 High school is one type of secondary school that provides for a limited age range. It is the organisation providing for the level 3, and the building where this takes place. (I assume somewhere a school board will use a single building to provide for an all through school)

The next sentence in Secondary school illustrates the problem of having a redirect.

When lower secondary education is provided in the same school as primary education or in a separate school, usually called a middle school, it is usually not called secondary education (except by some education experts) and is considered to be the second and final phase of basic education. It has to be there to cope with the redirect but internationally makes no sense what so ever.

In the UK context Middle schools are a legal concept- they are divided into "middle schools deemed secondary" and "middle schools deemed primary" for statistical and financial purposes. This was so confusing that the UK phased them out- so my daughter was allowed to go to one, but my son was younger and had to do primary secondary transfer at eleven, I was a governor at all three schools so had to handle the transistion! Part of the statistical problem for the local authority was that a middle school bridged levels 1 and 2 of the ISCED scale and transfer was at year 9 leaving the Upper School bridging levels 2 and 3.

I have taught 2 UK schools with High School in their name- in Kent. In Kent this was a euphemism for a secondary modern school my sister taught for 25 years in the same school, that, at times, had High School in its title- there it meant comprehensive school. Now I think it is called an academy. All of them were secondary school- all were different and had to follow the national curriculum- all the pupils transferred in at 11. If we want an article on High Schools we need to stay on focus- and if we want one on secondary schools in general we need to keep it clean, and avoid giving the US suystem prominence by modifying each statement with a 'however' or íf phrase'.

I haven't considered Scottish transfer at 12 to academies, also known as high-schools, but as you say they are more easily seen as variants of the 'flawed' English system- and by sheer weight of number they cannot be the primary article, in the same way that Los Angeles in California is the primary article and Los Ángeles, Chile is reached through a disamb.Education in Scotland#Secondary school naming is very clear that in Scotland, the organisation is a secondary school, 188 choose to call themselves High Schools and 131 call themselves academies. All are 11-18 non-selective schools. This can be handled by a hat note.

I have considered the incoming links to High school, and the concept the link is trying expand. Of course it is not simple- articles about US and Canadian topics use phrases like- when I finished High School. or a High School friend- using it as a measure of age, German subjects often use it to explain it is a mistranslation of their prestigeous universities 'Hochschule', article on education often include it in section to explain the secondary stage of education can have many names. I haven't been exhaustive as I found so many weak articles with Multiple Issue hatnotes- I started to lose focus, but it confirmed my hypothesis that they mainly assume they are talking about a K-12 high school.

You say Everything significant that can be said about high schools internationally also applies to secondary schools . I don't agree- I have tried. We either have a K-12 High school (level 3) or the larger secondary school that delivers full (level 2 and 3) Secondary education ! note separate article !. However, there is plenty to be written about American high schools, so that should probably be the topic of the article. High school (United States) therefore sounds like a good title. That is fair. There is no clear solution. I am trying to simplify the issue further- I want to move the redirection away from Secondary School- as it is hindering the development of that article and to create the change with as fewer redirect changes as possible to keep it clean. Your option 1 does not address the problem I am trying to solve, your option 2 does solve that problem. I suggest my proposal will be cleaner. Thanks for your attention. ClemRutter (talk) 21:26, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the useful detailed analysis. You clearly know much more about the education system than I do. So high school can mean:

• a synonym for secondary school in general, for example an English school covering levels 2 and 3
• K-12, a particular type of secondary school covering level 3 only, prevalent in the United States and parts of Canada
• various films, etc. - these already have articles listed in High school (disambiguation) and can be ignored for this discussion

Are the first two uses different enough to merit separate articles? Probably. Is either of them the primary topic for high school? For Americans, yes; globally, probably not. So here's a suggestion:

• Create the new article at High school (North America) (small s?)
• Move High school (disambiguation) to High school and modify it to show Secondary school and High school (North America) prominently at the top (like New York)
• Change High School to redirect to dab High school
• Before making other changes, change existing links to High school/High School to point to appropriate articles such as Secondary school

The main thing missing here is coverage of level-3-only schools outside North America. Is that significant enough to be a problem, or can they be covered adequately in Secondary school (which already mentions that some systems substitute middle school for lower secondary)? Certes (talk) 10:46, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

That would work. Other systems do follow the K-12 model- but they are so similar they can be included as a section on High school (North America) (as they are K-12 systems) and a link on the High School (disamb) page. A lot of the verbage about terminology can be included there too. It allows us to write a wlink High Schools in Kent, UK, and write a simple wlink to High Schools in Scotland. Above all it allows me to continue to Secondary school! So having got this far- who is going to initiate the change? I haven't done this sort of task beforeI am a little short of time over the next two weeks- travelling from where I am at the moment in the expat community in Nimes- to grandchildren in Nottingham. ClemRutter (talk) 09:47, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

I'm happy to help with sorting links out etc. I think we're both agreed on what to do, but do we want more opinions first? What you just wrote makes me doubt that my suggestion of (North America) is the best qualifier. Would High school (K-12) be more accurate and inclusive? Certes (talk) 10:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Go ahead (North America) is the best qualifier, as it needs extra no explanation within the article. Go ahead. I´ll watch and comment and tweak when I am back on the island. ClemRutter (talk) 10:02, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Progess of the reversion

I've moved the sandbox article to High school (North America) and started looking at links to High school. There are over 13,000 of them (plus 1,000 to High School) and I've edited a sample of the first 300. Results:

• 250 changed to High school (North America) (mostly U.S. but a few Canadian)
• 30 changed to High school (upper secondary), a new redirect to collect links to US-style education systems in Brazil, Sweden, etc.
• 10 changed to Secondary school, which was their existing destination via redirect
• A few unlinked, or rephrased to link to multiple targets

Changing the rest might cause unacceptable disruption, as well as being a herculean task to do manually. Where do we go from here? One option is to decide on the evidence above that High school (North America) is the primary topic of High school and move the page, after fixing the few hundred links for which it would be inappropriate.

There are also 60 templates to edit. That's a manual job but a small one and, as the impact is higher, I'll make sure I know where we're going before setting off. Certes (talk) 14:23, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

I have been watching it live on 'your notices'! Nice. I did the clean up of the wording at Secondary school- and have taken a first glance at the Middle school problem--

I am happy with a page rename and a High school (disambiguation) solution. Hold back on the templates as I suspect °they will need a little work on Middle school when that is decided, but you could email me a list. ClemRutter (talk) 15:42, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Templates affected are here (and here for the uppercase S version). The "Did you know nomination" templates shouldn't be used in articles, so that cuts the list down a bit. Certes (talk) 16:22, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

Thank you both for your excellent work on this problem that has been argued about for some time. I think you've found an excellent solution. Dbfirs 20:28, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

@Dbfirs: Thank you! I'm not an education expert, and didn't attend a US-style high school, so any advice would be very welcome. Certes (talk) 20:44, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

My experience is limited to a selection of "High Schools" in the UK, so I can't really help with the new article. Let me know if I can help with links, once you decide on the best pattern. Dbfirs 21:26, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

I've not forgotten this task; I've been waiting in case other subject experts had something to say. Meanwhile I've started sorting out the links to High School (capital S), which is a more manageable job. For High school, it may be best to update the templates first. That should reduce the number of pages with relevant links by eliminating those linked only via templates. Certes (talk) 23:37, 9 September 2017 (UTC)

I've diverted 60% of High School links to the North America article. Most were in boilerplate infoboxes. I've not started the more challenging task of sorting out the other 40% but they may split 50-50 between the upper secondary redirect and Secondary school. It's looking marginal as to whether the North America article is the primary topic for High school. Readers come first but, from a technical viewpoint, making High school a dab would make rogue links easier to find and fix. Certes (talk) 16:56, 10 September 2017 (UTC)

I've diverted a few of the non-American links to High School but I can see that doing them properly is going to be very labour intensive. Mostly they can go by country^[1] but there are a few odd cases like Don Bosco High School (Lahore) which covers kindergarten to 10th grade. Some would take a lot of research or even be impossible to fix: essentially they say Joe Obscure graduated from Neverheardofit High School; go figure which type. We could just unlink these as unhelpful links.

[1] Incomplete cheat sheet (n=North American, s=secondary, u=upper): AT s AU s BR u CN u CO s DE s ET u GB s GR u ID u IE s IL u IR u IN s JP u KR u LT u MX n NL s NO u PH u PK u PL u PT u RS u RU u TW u UG s VN u

I'm going to pause at this point and see if anyone has a brighter idea. Certes (talk) 16:21, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Several ideas

• Joe Obscure graduated from Neverheardofit High School; go figure which type. must be a North American type High School, as UK kids only graduate from university. It is a common keypoint in a US teenages life ( a measure of age) and appears in in all the teenage blogs. It is not used at all in the UK where the eqivalent would be 'when I left school' or after my GCSEs. I think we can safely redirect these to High School (North American) and tag them for manual check in future. Or new category High school graduation that redirects into High School (North American).
• Do the US ones, do the Canadian ones. Then proceed country by country- but attach a message about the change to the articles protecting project talk page, flagging what what we have done and invite local editors to go through the list.
• Non-anglophone countries. I am sceptical that the school is correctly labelled if 'High school' was used- take extreme care.ClemRutter (talk) 19:30, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

I've realised that I'm discarding useful country information when (for example) I change High School#United Kingdom to Secondary school, even though there is no such section. We already have several Secondary education in (Country) pages, such as Secondary education in New Zealand (article) and Secondary education in Australia (redirect to Education in Australia). Is it worth linking via those, creating new redirects where they don't exist? That would give us flexibility to point each redirect at (our guess at) the appropriate article, and have a local expert correct our decision for that country in a single edit later. It would also make the work easier to split up by marking all links which have been reviewed. On the other hand, it would be more work in total so it may be considered overkill. If so, do we still want to link to Secondary school, or do we point the redirect at a suitable section of Education in Australia etc.? Certes (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes. Secondary education in Australia (redirect to Education in Australia), and likewise for each nation. Unfortunately it is worth the trouble. Half asleep, I looked at the Australia pages before having read all of your post, and was about to say that eventually we would need a new article explaining things like school design- curriculum, and in the meantime we could get by by adding a section to the Ed in Oz page. Then I couldn't see how to include one! So it had to be a redirect. But as you said Secondary education in New Zealand (article) actually works and does what I want. Secondary education in Italy, also works but needs work. It is very different which is a good thing. If you look at the Oz articles on individual schools you lose the will to live- but each one of them could do with a good article Secondary education in Australia article explaining what they are trying achieve. That is not overkill- and it makes us look like an encyclopedia. ClemRutter (talk) 22:20, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

We do have List of secondary education systems by country which should tie it all together, and may save some time in creating a few stubs. ClemRutter (talk) 07:24, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Link on WikiProject Education

Some national education wikiprojects don't seem very active, so I've created a section at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Education. They may have useful advice and people who can help with the editing. Please feel free to chip in and correct or clarify my request there. Certes (talk) 23:20, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

• Why is this discussion taking place on the talk page of a redirect where no one can find it? It would make more sense to discuss it with a concrete, centralized proposal at Secondary school, where High school currently redirects. czar 13:53, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

If that's a reply to me: I'm not an education expert; I stumbled across the existing discussion when trying to resolve links to dab pages. I offered to lend a hand with the bulk editing, but soon realised that the situation was complex and it was unclear what to do. Certes (talk) 15:27, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

@Czar: I think you have just illustrated the nature of the problem: you think that using the talk page of a redirect is wrong (fine no problems with that) then you propose using the talk page of another redirect. If I recall, High school used to redirect to the disamb page but was restored to a previous incorrect setting, though I might be wrong. We have to separate the term High School (which is location specific) from the concept High school (North America) (Yes we do have to unclude Canada). How it is done is complex- where it is discussed is immaterial- but getting every editors' attention and input is critical. If you feel you have a better solution please suggest it. ClemRutter (talk) 17:49, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

If the logic above is flawed- it was because I missed the fact that I was on a redirect- and we probably are now saying the same thing. ClemRutter (talk) 17:54, 2 October 2017 (UTC)

• ? No, it's just customary to put the discussion in the place where it will have the most longevity. So if "high school" is being redirected, leave a notice here and centralized discussion on the target's talk page. It's the same procedure as for merge discussions. Edit: I've centralized discussion and my recommendations here: Talk:Secondary education in the United States#Redirects. Again, I don't see any cause for splitting High school (North America) from the existing topics (Secondary education in the United States). Every country has its own tradition of schooling, and each article is equipped to handle those histories in summary style. czar 17:57, 2 October 2017 (UTC)