Talk:Christmas pudding

Initial comments

brilliant article, I'm dribbling already. jimfbleak 08:07, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

"...once real silver coins were not available..." When would that be? I certainly remember having a sixpence in the Christmas Pudding in the Sixties and seem to remember it being normal at that time. - Jmabel 07:47, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

difficult to put a date on it. The date when the Mint stopped issuing real silver coins is probably in the British coinage pages somewhere, but they didn't vanish from circulation immediately. All the "silver" 3d pieces really were silver, and you could still find the odd one of those in the '50s (we used to save them up to put in the pudding). Older silver 6d and 1s coins were still in circulation then, too, and some households used to save the odd silver one they found to go in the pudding (my mother used to wrap a cupro-nickel sixpence up in greaseproof paper as a compromise). But because with inflation the real silver coins became worth much more than their face value, people took them out of circulation, and I think eventually the Mint began playing the same game. Unfortunately we don't have an article on the 6d, which might give the detail. seglea 08:54, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

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What is crystallized peel? Orange I presume. Rmhermen 17:27, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

mixed citrus, I think, but I'm not sure enough to do an article on it, which is certainly needed. It comes cut into cubes about .5cm. Standard item on the UK cook's shelf but I've never seen it anywhere else (not that I've looked very hard, it's not my personal favourite). seglea 17:39, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC). Also called "candied peel". seglea

"Peel" generally refers to preserved citron, orange, or lemon peel. The peel is boiled or just soaked, sometimes in a salt solution, to reduce bitterness, before being simmered in syrup to "preserve" or "candy" it. Preserved citron was the first to appear, in the late middle ages. Orange and lemon came later. Modern "fruits glacés"--whole cherries, mandarins, pineapples and such--are more of a Victorian thing, or perhaps from a bit earlier in the late 1700s. Grapefruit and lime peels are much more recent, probably twentieth century. Really old versions of these puddings do not contain any peel at all. The peel of choice in the wonderful Georgian cookbooks was citron, used in all sorts of dishes and not just these puddings; orange peel was also popular. By the time plum puddings became associated specifically with Christmas around the time of Eliza Acton, a mix of citron and orange peel seems to be standard. Modern Christmas puddings often call for orange marmalade, which for all practical purposes is shredded preserved orange peel. Lemon peel shows up only rarely in old recipes. This could all be sourced out with period cookbooks. MonteGargano (talk) 05:37, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Restoring "the dessert" in the opening sentence. Of course it is not the only dessert ever served on Christmas day, but it is the only one that is traditionally served (which is what the article says), in the sense that anyone in England (I'm never sure about the Scots) would recognise it as the traditional thing to have, even if they hated the stuff and would never serve it themselves.

Second group of comments

10/Feb/2004

Before I altered the Christmas Pudding page, I thought I would ask here first; I own a non-profit, no banner, no requests for donations hobby site about Christmas Puddings and it includes my recipe. I was going to add a couple of my photos to the Wikipedia Christmas Pudding page, and offer a link to my site. Is the link a reasonable idea, or will people be upset? here's the link; http://pudding.denyer.net/ all constructive comments appreciated, Paul Denyer (there's a feedback form on the site, if you wish to contact me)

I've had a look and I think it would be a perfectly reasonable link from the article. And a picture or two would be excellent - thanks. seglea 06:28, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've just added two images and a link, I'm very hesitant to edit someone else's work, but am quite willing to help with any information I have. Thanks, Paul denyer 11/02/2004

Paul, while you're here, go check out our Wikimedia Cookbook at the sister project, Wikibooks We have a recipe for a Sussex pudding at Christmas pudding, but more always could be added, either on the same page or with some other title to differentiate them, that is if you're willing to release it under the GFDL. Gentgeen 07:39, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And there's no need to be hesitant about editing anyone else's work on Wikipedia - speaking as the chief contributor to Christmas Pudding so far, I say go right ahead! (I can just change it back if I don't like it, after all). seglea 08:31, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Too right! Paul everybody here edits everyone elses work mercilessly. It's how Wikipedia works. Just jump in and join the party. theresa knott 09:36, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Third group of comments

What is there in Christmas pudding ? I would love to have a recipee of that famous cake, but that is unfortunate, that there is no information about this in the encyclopedia. How sad. Anthère0

Ah, found it, I am relieved :-) Well, it is good that a link be provided. The article could have been deleted as others were. Brrrr. Glad they were some people to provide background :-)

Isn't Christmas pudding also known as "figgy pudding", as well as plum pudding? I can not find any information on figgy pudding on Wiki beyond the lyrics of "We wish you a merry Christmas", however from looking around online, it appears at one time "figgy" and plum pudding were both tradition foods for the holiday. I don't mean to nit pick. I just think if this is correct, it would be useful information to add - I've heard many people wonder what exactly figgy pudding is.

75.111.30.152 07:39, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

It appears figgy pudding is something different - there is now an article on it. I didn't know either. seglea 22:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Wonderful article

I did a slight rework to improve the structure and allow me to add a note about flaming/firing (when I first had a northern girlfriend I discovered it is not universal). She looked at my dad like he was a loon. Icundell 22:48, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Interesting Word Choice

"Many households have their own recipe for Christmas pudding, preferably handed down the family; it is probable that there are also regional variations."

Is it really preferable that the recipe be passed down in such a manner? Perhaps a revision should be considered. (Pygmypony 05:42, 12 April 2006 (UTC))

Given the parlous state of home cooking in the UK these days, I think it is preferable that the few remaining instances of family recipes being handed down the generations are preserved --TheBoondockTwenty 10:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I wrote the "preferably" originally. What it means is that these are the ones regarded with most pride and pleasure. I'll put something like that in. seglea 22:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

The "After Christmas" section.

It seems to be original research. Someone needs to add citations. oTHErONE _(Contribs) 08:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Not really OR. It's just stuff most English people know. There is nothing there that I find even slightly surprising. Icundell 14:25, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I've never heard or seen anyone eating christmas pud except at or near to Christmas. I vote that the stuff about eating it at other times of year be deleted. If you buy rather than make Christmas pud, then you can only buy it a few weeks leading up to Christmas anyway. 89.242.118.82 (talk) 14:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

whilst I never buy Christmas puddings you'll find that the "few weeks before Christmas" has morphed into more than four months - first seen this year on 4th September! DickyP (talk) 12:09, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Plum puddings were most definitely consumed in all seasons before some time in the 1800s. Mrs. Raffald's cookbook (1769), for example, has a recipe for "Hunting Pudding"--to us, it's a familiar recipe for modern Christmas pudding, but the name clearly shows it was not a holiday food at all. Only after these puddings became somewhat unfashionable and stodgy, and decidedly not dishes for daily fare, did they become firmly associated with the backward-glancing and nostalgic Christmas meal. MonteGargano (talk) 05:52, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Puritan Ban

Werent Christmas Puddings Banned by puritans? or is this just a myth

Christmas celebrations in general were banned by the rather Puritan Parliament in the 1640s, a practice continued in the English interregnum (1649-1660), which also affected some of the American colonies at the time. Parliament was successful in suppressing church services on Christmas Day and making it a regular work-day, but they were not entirely successful in stamping out celebrations and popular observance of the day. The term "Christmas pudding" does not commonly appear in print till the 19th century. However, as food historian Ivan Day has noted, the oldest known uses of the term "Christmas Pudding" are in 1649 and 1675, so it is possible that the general ban on Christmas celebrations was understood as a ban on Christmas Pudding. However, there is no substantiation of any explicit ban on the pudding itself. MonteGargano (talk) 06:04, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Citation

Why on Earth has this article been tagged as not citing its references and sources? Any ideas? This looks like over-zealous tagging. —Stonefield 11:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Translated to American English: Fruit Cake

This article should include a sentence which explains that Christmas Pudding is the same thing as fruit cake for the sake of clarity. (not signed)

I find this hard to believe. I have bought fruit cake in America, and it is fruit cake, not Christmas pudding. The anon who wrote this should try a real Christmas pudding some time, and get a hold of the difference.

Christmas pudding is most definitely not the same as Christmas cake!!! --ukexpat 12:57, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

For similar reasons I have removed the following from the article:

Fruit Cake Tossing

In some occasions Fruit cake has been known to be thrown like a stone or a frisbee for fun or ::sport. This has mainly been observed in the south.

It is highly unlikely that what is being thrown here is Christmas pudding, and anyway the remark is uninterpretable - the south of what, or where? seglea 22:18, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

All year round

Is it really true that Christmas puddings are available and eaten throughout the year as it says in the introduction? In my experience, they are only found in the shops running up to Christmas and I've never seen them eaten at any other time than Christmas (which is a shame as I adore them!)Hot cross buns are a different matter - you seem to see them for sale all year round, now.

I have also come here to say that Christmas pud is only eaten at Xmas. Definately not at Easter. "Christmas pudding is the dessert traditionally served on Christmas day, although still available and popular throughout the year in Britain." I say that the later half of this sentance should be deleted as it is definately not true! You can only buy them leading up to Xmas for example. 89.242.118.82 (talk) 14:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Your assertion is as accurate as your spelling! Christmas Pudding is most definitely eaten all year round - not to mention that shop-bought ones are nowhere near as good as a good home made one. Once made they literally last for years. DickyP (talk) 12:09, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

My family has made Christmas puddings as long as I can remember and we certainly ate them at other times of the year too - usually at my parent's birthdays. While it is true that you can only seem to buy them around Christmas time, those of us who make them ourselves are certainly not limited as to when they can be eaten. Maybe the sentence can be removed for lack of independent references, but do not remove it simply because it's not what you do! Arnie Side (talk) 15:52, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

My family has been keeping one back for Easter for generations. The recipe we use comes down from my great grandmother and makes about 5 2lb puds. Not sure where she got it, but she was a cook at Lulworth Castle in the 1860s, so it may have come from there. Curiously, my Wife's family recipe is similar in proportions, and her mother remembers having it at Easter too. I have not seen them on sale after Christmas except in the reduced section, but supermarkets and manufacturers would not sell them in sufficient quantities to justify stocking them at other times of the year. 151.170.240.10 (talk) 11:08, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

As I noted above, plum puddings were most definitely consumed in all seasons before some time in the 1800s. Only in the Victorian period did they become firmly associated with the backward-glancing and nostalgic Christmas meal. MonteGargano (talk) 06:07, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

No plums in plum pudding

Could someone more competent than me please add the information that plum pudding does not actually contain plums and give the reason why? This is really missing from this article, thanks. Maikel 09:02, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

What does it taste like?

What's the texture like? Is it sweet? Does it taste heavy? I'd love to try this (but not knowing anyone English, I wouldn't know what it's supposed to taste like.) I'd love to hear someone describe the flavor, and compare it to (yuck) fruitcake.

One other thing: GREAT article (even for Wikipedia.) Someone should nominate it for one of those WP awards. Very well done. 68.36.127.193 19:19, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It is like a moist and more dense version of fruitcake, with a stronger somewhat alcoholic flavour. And its hot. What have Americans got against fruitcake anyway? It is not such a great article - the stuff about eating it at other times of year is not true. 89.242.118.82 (talk) 15:03, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it tastes much like fruit cake. It's much more flavoursome than that. Anyway, I'm surprised there's no section on ingredients or preparation. Munci (talk) 17:57, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The dominant flavors of plum pudding are definitely the raisins and the booze. American fruitcake has a decidedly stronger flavor of mixed spice--cinnamon, nutmeg, mace, cloves, ginger, and even cardamom--and a significantly heavier quantity of candied and dried fruits and nuts, along with molasses or similar dark syrup. I think the British call this style of cake a "Creole Cake", perhaps in reference to the Jamaican "Black Cake". The UK fruit cake is more like a pound cake studded with raisins and glacéed fruits. The texture of all these is also very different. The British cake has a higher proportion of cake batter to fruit and nuts. The American cake is far more dense with fruit and nuts, with just enough "cake" to hold it together. Plum pudding is "fluffy" and not very cohesive by comparison. MonteGargano (talk) 22:53, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

There's confusion about the similarities between Christmas Pudding and American fruitcake. The reason is probably because English people (like me) think of fruitcake as the dark stuff Christmas Cake and similar ones are made from. American fruitcake is usually pale and quite a different beast (I live in the US and am one of the few who admit to liking it). The only similarity is that they are both cakes made with fruit. e.g., of American fruitcake widely despised: https://www.claxtonfruitcake.com/ClaxtonFruitCakeHomePage-960.jpg 71.210.19.216 (talk) 20:32, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

Now I am thoroughly confused by the comments above:

"[plum pudding is] a moist and more dense version of fruitcake"

"The American cake is far more dense"

"[plum pudding has] a stronger somewhat alcoholic flavour"

"American fruitcake has a decidedly stronger flavor of mixed spice".

From the ingredients listed in the article, it sounds like PP & FC have similar flavors.

As for what Americans have against FC, the ones that are generally available in supermarkets are like dry, dense bricks studded with super sweet and bizarrely colored candied fruit. That they are generally brick-shaped is quite an irony. It's dreadful if you've never developed a nostalgia for it. A really good (and moist) FC, replete with alcohol, is much more expensive and difficult to find. Online specialty sites may be a shopper's only hope unless they make it themselves. As a result, most Americans know only about the awful stuff. Are commercially available PP, as found in the US, good examples or are they as dreadful as most commercially FCs? Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 07:48, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Since you reference some of my comments, I will respond. I do not agree that Plum Pudding is more dense than fruit cake. Plum Pudding includes bread crumbs and suet, and these ingredients "loosen" the mix when it's cooked. I can't quite slice my Plum Pudding; I basically use a spoon to scoop up each serving. In contrast, fruit cake can be cut in slices. True, both these preparations have similar flavors and nearly the same ingredients. Mincemeat also has these same ingredients. Still, to my taste, they don't end up tasting the same, though admittedly, I'm basing this on the many recipes I've tried through the years. It would certainly be possible to make Plum Pudding, Fruit Cake, and Mincemeat that all tasted almost the same. But certain differences remain: the butter in the cake vs the suet in the pudding, and the eggs + flour in cake and pudding vs the lack of these in the mincemeat. I love all three of these sweets. My Fruit Cake is always a hit with Fruit-Cake haters, but I have to candy my own peel to get the right flavor; people are shocked at what Fruit Cake is supposed to taste like. MonteGargano (talk) 14:22, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

You can buy traditional English Christmas Pudding from some stores in the US. You eat it hot with hot custard. It's delicious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.148.8.216 (talk) 08:17, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Plums = raisins/currants?

This article states that the addition of prunes in Elizabethan times is the reason for the name "plum pudding." I've read many times that this is a common misconception, that "plums" is simply the way people used to refer to raisins or currants. Does anyone have a reliable source on this? SergioGeorgini (talk) 13:26, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "plums" do not refer exclusively to plums/prunes as we know them today. All sorts of dried fruit came under the heading of "plum", and comfits of all sorts were called "sugar plums" in later times. I don't have the sources at hand to correct this article right now. MonteGargano (talk) 14:24, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

I have no reference to name, either, other than to say that I heard a discussion of this on a holiday cooking show a few years back. The chef and the food historian on the show agreed with MonteGargano (talk · contribs) that in Elizabethan times, all dried fruits were referred to as "plums". I do not remember why. I cannot say whether they were true authorities or not as I don't remember their names. Wordreader (talk) 23:12, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Images

The various images placed in the The wish and other traditions section looks distracting (they look yummy, but their positioning makes it hard to read and focus on the article). Would people object if those images were placed in a gallery like this?:

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londonsista ^Prod 09:45, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I've removed numerous citation tags in the article, it made the section look messy. I replaced those with a refimprovesection tag. Also removed and/or added wikilinks to words, and I have added a reference section. I fiddled about with the above image gallery to see how it fits in with the article. But to be honest I'd really like a discussion/some sort of consensus before changing anything in case something else can be done/I piss someone off. ;) londonsista ^Prod 13:59, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Plum Puddings

I was always told that "Plum" was a corruption of "Plomb" or "Plumb" meaning heavy (like lead, plumbum (Latin)) Certainly in my French lessons at school there were references to English puddings being Plomb.

If you read the OED you'll find that Plum was in the past a generic term for all fruits such as currents, raisins etc, when used in cooking. DickyP (talk) 12:09, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

A vegetarian version?

Do British vegetarians have an effective substitute for the suet? Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 07:50, 25 December 2013 (UTC) [EDIT: break added so the reply appears below my query.]

Most supermarkets sell vegetarian suet.109.158.149.79 (talk) 17:36, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

What is "vegetarian suet"? Do you mean margarine or coconut oil or what? Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 03:59, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

It's basically hard margarine containing a number of vegetable oils and fats. It doesn't taste anything like suet, but has a similar texture and cooking qualities. --Ef80 (talk) 15:28, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

It is a mixture of flour (either wheat or rice) and vegetable oil, that is made to look like suet. 86.186.228.112 (talk) 04:34, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Homemade dish

The article currently gives the impression that CP is lovingly made in British homes using recipes handed down the generations. I doubt if this was ever true, even when Christmas dinners were huge Dickensian feasts with dozens of diners, and it's certainly not true today. Anybody who has made CP from scratch will know that it's a very big job for very little benefit. Almost everybody in the UK buys CP from the supermarket and cooks it in a microwave oven. --Ef80 (talk) 15:24, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

As below, I disagree - Making Christmas Pudding is only time consuming, NOT difficult! And the benefits are enormous - not as sweet, lighter but firmer once cooked, and much tastier. Most important of all one NEVER, EVER cooks a CP in a microwave: it makes them go like a cannon ball. DickyP (talk) 12:09, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

I disagree, many people make their own Christmas pudding. Otherwise, why do you think cookery shows, cookbooks and magazines are full of recipes for Christmas pudding and supermarkets sell large volumes of the ingredients to make it? Also, it isn't "a very big job", it is much easier to make than most desserts as everything is essentially just mixed in together, it doesn't require accuracy and you can't really get it wrong. You can buy almost anything ready made, but cooking remains a normal activity for much of the population.86.186.228.112 (talk) 04:26, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

The King's Christmas

I added a couple paragraphs about the King's Christmas Pudding. O'Connor's article is really interesting because it has examples of what some of the pudding recipes and cookbooks looked like in the 1920s and 30s. This recipe really put Christmas pudding on the map and made it one of, if not the most famous dish that came of the British Empire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by IamMeggs (talk • contribs) 23:17, 7 December 2016 (UTC)