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Uchi deshi

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There is a recent debate on the Aikido Journal forum about what it means to be an uchi-deshi and as such I question the use of the term in this article. Let me be clear that I consider Saito Sensei as one of the closest of O-Sensei's deshi and there is no intention to diminish his accomplishments in budo or his sincerity in his efforts to preserve the founders art.

  • Pros to using the term uchi-deshi:
    1. He lived and cared for one of O-Sensei's most important dojos for many years and was given the responsibility for the care of the site on his death.
    2. He is now revered for his efforts to preserve O-Sensei's art, particularly his weapons techniques.
  • Cons to using the term uchi-deshi:
    1. Kisshomaru Ueshiba, O-Sensei's son, has stated that there were no uchi-deshi after World War II. This would undercut the claims of many Aikido instructors. This statement seems to use a very strict definition of the term.
    2. Saito Sensei had a job most of this time so was unable to do the constant training usually associated with beint an uchi-deshi.
    3. The use of the term is POV in that it is intended to boost the standing of Saito Sensei. I don't believe that his standing needs to be boosted in any artificial way. I think that his great accomplishments stand on their own. This article is otherwise NPOV.

For full discolsure: I am an Aikikai Sandan in the USAF-ER and have never trained directly with Saito Sensei. I have trained at times with those that have trained with him and I consider myself an admirer of his teaching. Edwinstearns 16:37, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Indeed the word uchi deshi is used to boost Saito, but indeed he was a major long time student of osensei. If we can find another wording with pretty much the same content, then we avoid defining the uchi deshi topic term indeed is messy. Habj 18:55, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
It should be noted that in none of the Japanese materials published by Saito-sensei does he refer to himself as an uchideshi. Rather it is as "uchideshi douzen", or "uchideshi douyou", "the same as an uchideshi". The key thing with Saito was that he had a 24-on, 24-off work schedule, so he was not an uchideshi in the sense that he lived in the dojo and depended on Ueshiba for support. However, on his off days he essentially was an uchideshi, caring for Ueshiba and rigorously training. I suggest the following wording:
"Although other students such as Koichi Tohei trained with Ueshiba for more years than Saito did, Saito's work allowed him to train almost as an uchideshi, for long periods as the only student, from 1946 until Ueshiba’s passing in 1969." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.199.90 (talk • contribs)
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I think the photos in this page needs to be updated. As of right now, 31st december 2004, the pic-link is dead.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Fred26 (talk • contribs)

Iwama Ryu

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I very much doubt that you can claim Hitohiro Saitos org. to be the Iwama Ryu. It is another organisation. Habj 18:48, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, Iwama Ryu in Europe, as near as I can tell, doesn't refer to itself as "organization" (with attendant administration, dues, etc.) but rather a "network". At the same time, a number of Shin-shin Aikishurenkai's dojo's Japanese pages use 岩間流 as a referrent to their style. But the entry is certainly misleading as written. I'd suggest the following rewording:
"For a period of time, some of Saito's student's in the West formed a network of dojos called Iwama Ryu and got their grades directly from Saito rather than in Aikikai, although they were often given the possibility to choose. Morihiro Saito, however, never left the Aikikai. After his death, his son Hitohiro was requested by the Aikikai not to give out Iwama Ryu gradings. In order to continue giving out the gradings, Hitohiro formed the independent Shin Shin Aikishuren Kai. Some of the Iwama Ryu network dojos joined Hitohiro, while others officially joined the Aikikai."
The last paragraph of the article, concerning Hitohiro Saito can be dispensed with altogether, since it concerns him more than Morihiro, and repeats information in his article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.118.199.90 (talk • contribs)

Štefan Kurilla

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I would like to know why my sensei, Štefan Kurilla has been removed from the list of Saito sensei's followers after I added him. There are people with lower rank listed, and he is certainly 'significant' enough, being Saito sensei's highest ranking follower in central Europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.141.95.202 (talk) 23:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

successor organisations

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Is there more information available on what has happened to the organisations of Saito's students, since his death? In particular, which organisations (e.g., takemusa) are back under the aikikai umbrella or not? There seems to be a lack of information here about the heirachy of Saito's followers. They are certainly notable and relevent to this article. Also, shouldn't the listing of students be restricted to those of the highest ranks and notabilities? Cesiumfrog (talk) 23:49, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Field

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The first paragraph of the legacy section includes Michael Field (official representative in Australia) and Michael "Mic" Marelli - Australia. Is it possible that the "official representative" bit is an exageration? Googling for Michael Field's website [1] and comparing with the next paragraph of the section, it turns out that Michael Field is only 5d, whereas a 6d shihan of Saito has been in Australia since before Mr Field even first went to Iwama. Other red flags: his website titles him Michael Field the Iwama Ryu Aikido Australia Soke (!), says his organisation Field Aikido has been issuing Iwama Ryu Aikido Dan Ranks exclusively in Australia since 1994, and boastfully Michael says "Now that my master, Morihiro Saito Sensei the technical heir of the founder has passed away (2002), no one is qualified to rank me" (presumably that puts him above the two Takemusu 7ds). Meanwhile Michael "Mic" Marelli is apparently 6d according to Saito junior's organisation [2]. It seems that the article currently has the order of precedence for these three reversed. Cesiumfrog (talk) 22:27, 15 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

succession box

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According to the succession box at the bottom of the article, Morihiro was immediately succeeded (as Iwama dojo-cho) by Hiroshi Isoyama. However, according to some other articles (e.g., here), Morihiro was succeeded by his son Hitohiro (perhaps even while Morihiro still lived, and continuing for a couple more years after his death, before being replaced with Isoyama). Anyone have definitive information? Perhaps there is a further need to distinguish defacto from dejure dojocho? Cesiumfrog (talk) 03:29, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Books

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For what it's worth, here are the ISBNs of the five volume "Traditional Aikido" set that I own. "Japan Publications and Trading Company" currently listed in the main article as the publisher, was a distributor in US and Canada, not the publisher.

  • Traditional Aikido Vol. 1 Basic Techniques, 1st printing: September 1973, Author: Morihiro Saito, Publisher: Minato Research and Publishing Company, ISBN: 0-87040-266-8 (mine is 4th printing, July 1976)
  • Traditional Aikido Vol. 2 Advanced Techniques, 1st printing: January 1974, Author: Morihiro Saito, Publisher: Minato Research and Publishing Company, ISBN: 0-87040-267-6 (mine is 6th printing, October 1978)
  • Traditional Aikido Vol. 3 Applied Techniques, 1st printing: July 1974, Author: Morihiro Saito, Publisher: Minato Research and Publishing Company, ISBN: 0-87040-287-0 (mine is 4th printing, November 1978)
  • Traditional Aikido Vol. 4 Vital Techniques, 1st printing: October 1974, Author: Morihiro Saito, Publisher: Minato Research and Publishing Company, ISBN: 0-87040-288-9 (mine is 3rd printing, July 1977)
  • Traditional Aikido Vol. 5 Training Works Wonders, 1st printing: April 1976, Author: Morihiro Saito, Publisher: Minato Research and Publishing Company, ISBN: 0-87040-372-9 (mine is 2nd printing, July 1978) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.240.239.195 (talk) 03:25, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Dan rank

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For what it's worth, Saito Morihiro Sensei received 8th dan certificate from Ueshiba Morihei sensei (photograph of the 3rd and 8th dan certificates are provided in the "Traditional Aikido" books. Allegedly, he received a 9th dan from Ueshiba Kissomaru Sensei on August 4th, 1996, however I am still looking for confirmation of this information. ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.246.9.176 (talk) 05:48, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Lists of Students

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Is such an extended list of students really necessary - some as low as 4th Dan. I also think linking to that student's web site is just link farming in disguise. If the student is notable they should have their own article and then it makes sense to include them.Peter Rehse (talk) 04:46, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the list is over-done. What about ting the USA list to 7th dan and the other corimmuntries to 6th dan? The list will be smaller but the countries will be represented. jmcw (talk) 13:51, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That would be much better. The page is being worked on by User:Rufe - let us see what happens in the next few days before I unilaterally follow your suggestion.Peter Rehse (talk) 14:26, 9 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All I've really done with the list myself is to organize (take the clumps of names and make them each a bullet point) and add a reference for some of the people. I also added some of the recently promoted 7th dans and updated a few ranks. I hesitated to delete the 4-5th dans myself, but was thinking the same thing.
As for linking to their dojo pages, I could try to replace the references with a promotion announcement such as lists published by the Aikikai or local newspaper articles. This would take a significant amount of time to do though.

I've commented out everyone but those I know are quite senior in their respective counties. I will leave it to somebody else to make final decisions on who to include in the list if anybody at all. Another logical way would be to choose only the most senior students in general or to choose those who were Saito's deshi for the longest period of time...Rufe (talk) 09:40, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Knew there was a solution - it looks much better now.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:08, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it looks better. What about the red-link? Do you plan to write articles? jmcw (talk) 11:57, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Removed the red links - links can be put back when article is written.Peter Rehse (talk) 13:15, 10 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

One more thing is to make titles of the references rather than a bare link (looks prettier). The article is almost B class - not quite sure what is missing - perhaps a few more citations.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:41, 12 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As it is difficult to find in the history due to being commented out, I've dumped the list of other 6th/7th dan students who were not included that was deleted by Jmcw37's edit in comments below in case somebody would like to argue to include them based on the 6th/7th dan criterion at some time in the future.

Rufe (talk) 14:30, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Maybe, the list need some clarification, I see some student who never ranking so high directly from Saito Sensei but by Paolo Corralini for example. So if it's a list of direct student, maybe the rank need to reflect the direct award from Saito Sensei and not the next curriculum. --Tetsuo-fr (talk) 15:43, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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