Talk:Side cap

Cunt cap

I restored this section with a proper citation. I left out the "biter"/"cockbiter" term because I couldn't find a good reference. 68.9.202.192 (talk) 14:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Cap

Why is it sometimes called "pisscutter"?

Question moved from article -- Ferkelparade π 07:50, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[Although "garrison" makes sense with the cap's military background, is it possible that the name is actually a corruption of "Glengarry"?] - User:210.158.194.1

Forage cap?

Forage cap redirects here. I cannot find "forage cap" at either Merriam-Webster online or yourDictionary.com. If you Google "forage cap", it shows mostly US Civil War era kepis; thrown in for good measure are the soft German army field cap, the service cap, and the odd wedge. Anyone have a dress regulation they can quote verbatim or reference that tells one what a forage cap is officially? Or maybe a dictionary definition? In the CF, I only ever heard "forage cap" refer to the peaked service cap; some sergeants-major used it to refer to the women's service cap, especially the Navy one as opposed to the Army or Air Force ones ("bowlers"); or for the WWII era CWAC cap, which looked a lot like a transition between a kepi and a German field hat. Can anyone help? Tks.

Oh, and as to a source, Oxford confirms your usage, relating it to the Glengarry. SigPig 06:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I can't point to a source, but I know that it was called a forage cap in the British Army (though they don't wear it any more as far as I know). That version of it could be unfolded to give (somewhat ridiculous-looking) ear flaps; I don't know if this is common to all forage caps. PeteVerdon 16:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

It has never been known in the British Army as a forage cap, always a Field Service Cap, although it may have been misnomered in the RAF. It is still specifically referred to in several regimental dress regulations, notably the Rifles. (FROGSMILE (talk) 11:06, 19 February 2011 (UTC))

I think it would be good to mention the flap thing. The Canadian version I think can do that, but you have to snip the little stitches that attach the flaps to the crown. I also have a Bundeswehr one with little snap-fasteners instead of stitches. Also, 'twould be nice if someone could get their mitts on the CF Dress Indtructions (and its equivalent in other armed forces) so we could get the official terminology that each country uses.

If I can get my hands on my old wedge cap, I'll put it on a dummy head and photo it flap-up and flap-down. SigPig 19:00, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

During the 195o's & 1960's many high schools in New Zealand had two weeks of compulsory military cadets each year. Army (and air) cadets were issued with the NZ version of the British forage cap. I can confirm that they had flaps! The caps had two brass (or bronze) buttons on the peak. Wearers could undo the buttons and the sides of the cap would fold down over the back of the neck, over the ears and under the chin. As young school pupils we thought they looked "daft". It was quite a clever, compact design. The flaps may have been of some benefit in a military context but we never knew of the caps being intentionally used for keeping one's head warm! (Source: personal use and memory). In truth, a user would probably wear a balaclava UNDER the forage cap to provide warmth with the flaps acting as a wind break. (I have no citations for this - it is just an assumption.)[(User:Tim Kerr Tim Kerr (talk) 22:05, 16 November 2009 (UTC)]

If you google by skipping most of the US references (i.e. use a site like google.co.uk, not google.com ) then you can find lots of references....for a look at forage caps, try silvermans.co.uk

Forage cap should NOT redirect here - it refers to a peaked cap earlier called the Service Dress Cap in the Commonwealth.Michael Dorosh^Talk 13:40, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Much as I agree with you, I must disagree with you. "Forage cap" seems to be one of those ambiguous terms: just like "service cap" or "field cap", what it is exactly depends on current dress regulations. Seems in Commonwealth nations, "forage cap" refers to what's currently at combination cap. However, it also seems to refer to the kepi-like cap sported by the Americans during their civil war. Just google "forage cap" and see what you get. Seems to me at best that "forage cap" could be a disambiguation page. --SigPig 03:59, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

It might be relevant to mention forage caps, which were in use in the 18th century, and which may have evolved into the side cap. In the 18th century, it was common for troops in camp and on fatigue duties to wear a cap made from old uniform material. It was made of two pieces of cloth cut in a tall triangle, shaped just like civilian nightcaps. Often the tip was decorated with a tassel. It could be worn with the lower edge folded up, and the long tip stuck into the fold. The Prussians certainly used this type of cap (called a Zipfelmütze in German), as did the French. If we look at some side caps, we can see traces of this style is some of them. Best regardsTheBaron0530 (talk) 14:07, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

'Forage cap' essentially describes a function rather than any specific form of cap, of which there have been many over the last three hundred years that might come under that heading. Even though in certain English-speaking contexts the term has been ascribed- either formally or informally- to specific items of head dress, it would be a mistake to get bogged down in arguments as to whether one example of cap might be a forage cap or not. Best to restrict to official terms, in respective languages, for specific periods.

Garrison cap ?

This article describes the US meaning of garrison cap to be what I would call a forage cap. The combination cap article describes that cap (a "peaked cap") also as being referred to as a garrison cap in US parlence.

Which is right ? Or is a garrison cap labelled as such when it can be worn in a garrison (i.e. working dress) and the term does not specifically refer to the design of cap.

Can someone in the know put these two articles right please ?

It seems that a number of these terms (garrison cap, forage cap, and service cap) refer to different pieces of headgear, depending on time and place. Some web sites I visited show the garrison cap as a WWI-era combination cap[1][2], others as a modern USMC field cap (it always looked like a train engineer cap, in camo colours)[3][4]. I do not know what these lids are called officially.

As for forage cap, that is also used to describe:

- the kepi/shako-like cap of the US Army around the Civil War;

- the old name for the peaked cap (combination cap) worn by the Canadian Forces, now called the servcie dress cap (which brings up its own problems)

- the predecessor to the bowler cap formerly worn by female members of the CF (resembled the Civil War cap)

- the WWII German Army field cap

- a pillbox cap

- and a number of specific regimental style undress fatigue caps from the 19th century or earlier

The RAF website appears to refer to this cap (historically, at least) as the "field service cap", since the first RFC uniform was an Army uniform with this side cap. Confusion reigns!

So I don't know if "garrison cap" is as ambiguous as "forage cap", but it is extremely Amero-centric. Maybe the generic cap should be called a "side cap", which is what it seems to be referred to internationally. --SigPig 06:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This cap was called an overseas cap or cunt-cap in the US Army of the 1950s and 60s. At that time, a garrison cap was a round peaked cap with visor and internal grommet. Both were used with dress greens. In the sixties a baseball cap or helmet liner was used with fatigues, and wearing a beret could get you an Article 15. __Just plain Bill (talk) 00:43, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Other terms for this accessory uniform piece

Although officiall called the Garrison Cap, I have also heard it refered to as a 'cunt cap'. What is the origin of this terminology? How wide spread is it?

It's officially a flight cap in the U.S. armed forces. The origin is from basic observation - it looks like a vulva. Cunt Cap is alliterate, and obvious. Certainly my flight in basic used the term, and I'm damn sure the TI didn't say it. It's as wide spread as far as the Air Force and people who know the word cunt is. I've heard it used from as far as people who were from different tech schools than I, and have heard old crusty NCO's use it. Obviously people in the ass-kissing positions would never use it in front of a subordinate (politics), but I'm sure there are some officers who are aware of cunts and how well they go with caps. -- 10:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Look at article section "Offensive Term". -- Meyer 06:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Why are their not several sections based on the difference in where in the different branches of service?

A crusty old Rifles NCO of my acquaintance, having reached W.O. rank, referred to his new side-cap as a "split-arse cap."JF42 (talk) 20:02, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

forage cap

From what I've heard from American Civil War re-enactors, the typical "civil war cap" is actually called a forage cap. It was designed so that the wearer could use it to forage in the woods for berries, nuts, etc. A version worn by officers, which wasn't as deep, was called a "kepi."

It's use wasn't restricted to the American Civil War, either. In a painting of Napoleon III's surrender at the end of the Franco-Prussian War, the emperor is wearing a forage cap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parmadil (talk • contribs) 04:45, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

My books addressing Civil War uniforms confirm that it is a forage cap. Forage cap redirects to this article, hence its inclusion here. →Wordbuilder (talk) 15:40, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"Forage cap" has been the designation given to several different types of working or undress headdresses since the early 19th century. The design of cap has varied according to different armies or periods. Editor SigPig gives a good summary of different useages of the word in the British, Canadian and US armed forces in discussion entries above. It is a bit confusing that at the moment there is no reference in the actual text of the "garrison cap" article to the kepi style "forage cap" widely worn by both sides in the American Civil War. Perhaps a paragraph could be added. Alternatively, a separate article dealing specifically with forage caps could be created. Any views? Buistr (talk) 22:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

This needs to be clarified, as a separate article does currently exist at Forage cap. Either a hatnote at minimum, or a full sentence/paragraph. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:47, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Forage caps: generics and specifics

The confusion arises, in part, because military nomenclature is neither scientific or consistent. A 'forage cap', as the name suggests, was originally any undress cap worn by British cavalry when tending to their mounts. Also called 'watering caps,' they tended to be round bonnets in form. Essentially it was working dress, worn for comfort and to protect the expensive and increasingly heavy helmets and shakos, etc. Over the years, however, this has come to mean any undress or working headgear. The French term bonnet de police covered the same function.

Technically, in the British army, 'forage cap' came to mean a round undress cap (peaked or not) as described in regulations, worn by all arms. Since the introduction, between 1895 and 1905, of the Field Service Cap followed by the Service Dress Cap, I believe 'forage cap' has come to signify a coloured, stiffened, peaked cap worn in certain orders of dress principally by Guards and Cavalry and for formal parade wear by most arms and branches; the most obvious exceptions being Scottish Regiments, the Parachute Regiment and the Royal Tank Corps.

The Russians call their version, rather quaintly, furashka.

More recently, however, as far as British lay usage goes, people would think of a forage cap as what was known officially here as the 'Field Service' or 'Side' cap- but essentially any similar peakless, pleated-crown, fore-and-aft, wedge-shape (I could go on), folding bonnet. (What the Russians would call pilotka.)

In form, it is a very basic, piece of generic head-gear, although quite complex in structure. It seems to have appeared first in the British army circa 1800 or a little earlier, then in the Austrian army ca.1812, but the idea of folding caps had been developing for some years, not least in the form of the Glengarry bonnet. At the same time the hanging 'flamme of the French bonnet de police was beginning to atrophy, so that by the 1850's it was represented by a triangle of piping on one side of the body of the cap and by a tassle on the forward part of the crown. The resultant bonnet de police soufflet or bonnet de quartier with its braid-edged turn-ups resembled the 1812 laagermutze still being worn by the Austrians.

The fact that waiters in retro diners and other catering staff wear a similar cap is as much because a cheap paper cap can be folded flat and packed in boxes by the hundreds as because it is a snappy little number recalling the fragile certainties of the Eisenhower era. This underlies the basic functionality of the form. It's stowability was the essential factor. The additional comfort of flaps to keep the wearer's ears warm, when included in the design, were a bonus.

So, Emperor Napoleon III was not wearing a 'forage cap'. He was wearing a kepi- a soft, undress version of the tall shako cap- which first appeared in the Austrian cavalry early in the nineteenth century and was adopted in the 1840s as the working headgear of French Colonial troops in North Africa- the Casquette d'Afrique- and then by the elite riflemen of the Chasseurs de Vincennes- Casquette Chasseur and finally by the whole French army, when it was given the official name of bonnet de police visiere. (The Garde Imperiale kept their bonnet de police). The name kepi probably derived from the kappi of German-speaking volunteers in the Legion Etrangere. This essentially Austrian item became associated with the briefly victorious and modish Second Empire in France and was adopted by the U.S. Army, first in a stiff version, the 'Albert' or 'Gig' cap and subsq. the soft 'Forage Cap'- intended to be worn with the 'sack coat' for working dress. It was only because of the need for an inexpensive, mass-produced head dress at the outbreak of the American Civil War in 1861 that this Austro-Franco garment with its crown, crushed and tipped rakishly forward and known as the 'bummer's cap', became so widely associated with the US soldier of the later 19th century and why some might think a kepi -or kappi- is a 'forage cap'- which of course it essentially was. Confused? You should be.

This article is called 'Garrison Cap' because from the original writer's point of view, in his part of the world, that was the generic name for the peakless, fore-and-aft, pleat-crown uniform cap (or bonnet). That wasn't correct, but an article with an accurate generic name as its title would be unworkable, even if such a title could be agreed on.

"Military undress headgear"? "Military undress and working headgear"? Not much help either.

Perhaps it would be best to restrict Garrison Cap to the North American Usage and cross-refer to other articles on the parallel forms: "Side Cap/ "Field Service Cap" ; "Bonnet de Police / Calot" etc,etc.JF42 (talk) 23:00, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

That's a well written and informative addition JF42. Whatever the outcome of the garrison cap/forage cap/etc confusion, I suggest that you incorporate some or all of your material into the text of the actual article(s). Buistr (talk) 04:01, 3 April 2011 (UTC))

Thanks for the kind compliment. A bit off the cuff, to be truthful. I will give your suggestion some thought.JF42 (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

"Cuntcap" removal.

98.215.174.164 removed the section mentioning the term "cuntcap", as the reference cited turned out to be a false reference. I've reinstated the section as it's clear from this talkpage and a quick net search that that term is in use; but I've removed the questionable reference for now. Vulgarity is no reason to remove content from the encyclopedia. mcpusc (talk) 07:57, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, if the term is soooooo common and universal as you claim, surely someone can find a legitmate credible source for the term? The persistent absence of a credible citation leads to the obvious conclusion there is no legitmate credible source for the offensive term.

Cited with a minute of searching. You keep citing "vulgarity" and "obscenity", but wikipedia is not censored. Please stop. mcpusc (talk) 22:50, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

whatever pal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.215.174.164 (talk) 17:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. Agreed. But I've tidied up the synonyms and added a new section. There is no need, just because they exist, to include every synonym and slang equivalent to an article's head name in its very first sentence. -- Picapica (talk) 11:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

In my 22 years in the US Army the Garrison cap was always referred to as the Cunt Cap. Not PC but who cares.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 12:39, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Ask anyone who ever served - both my father (Korean War era) and maternal uncle (Vietnam War) refer to it as a "cunt cap." These are anecdotal, but how many anecdotal accounts does one need before one accepts such as fact - soldiers use a lot of slang and vulgarities and while the new PC armed forces may have phased such out as "sexist," it was in use for decades and likely used far more frequently than the "official" terminology. Hell, you'll be telling us next that creamed chipped beef on toast is no longer "shit-on-a-shingle" because it didn't get written up that way by an academic in a journal article about military life.

Most common name?

The lead to the article currently says:

"It is known as a garrison cap (in the United States), a wedge cap (in Canada), or officially field service cap[1] (in the United Kingdom and Commonwealth countries), but it is more generally known as the side cap."

This doesn't make sense to me. If the English speaking countries of the world call it a garrison cap, wedge cap and field service cap, how can it be "generally known" as a side cap? Who else is left to call it by this name? The only possible explanation I see is if the UK & Commonwealth call it side cap unofficially. I have no idea if that's true, but if it is, it should be stated right here. NipsonAnomimata (talk) 16:23, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

I would hypothesize that the generic term is used when someone wants to refer to the style of hat in general, as opposed to its individual instances (with their slight variations) used in each servicebranch/country.

The South African navy seems to use "side cap" officially.

Searching google books: "side cap" military might lead to further info. Refs and clarifications would definitely be helpful in the article. HTH. –Quiddity (talk) 20:30, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Angled Wear --why?

i've seen many vintage photos and some modern ones too of them being worn at an angle --sometimes remarkably so. i recall one caption mentioning "jaunty angle" --can anyone explain why this is done? i've wondered for decades actually and never found info. anyone? Cramyourspam (talk) 20:05, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• No practical reason but simply a whimsical practice derived from service custom. More common when individuals were off duty and out of sight of NCOs enforcing regulations. Buistr (talk) 03:38, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

RCAF

Regarding this edit "Some who wear air force uniform are not in RCAF, and some in the RCAF do not wear air force uniform)". The RCAF is not a separate military service like the RAF or the USAF. It is a command within the Canadian Armed Forces. So what is commonly called RCAF uniform is really CAF air force uniform. It is not uncommon for CAF airpersons to be employed outside the RCAF. In fact there is a whole squadron, 427 Special Operations Aviation Squadron, that is not part of the RCAF but instead part of Canadian Special Operations Forces Command. And it also not unusual to see naval and army uniforms in an RCAF unit. Logistics Branch members for example, can transfer between units across the whole CAF, but they do not change uniforms if they transfer from an RCN unit to an RCAF unit. Indefatigable (talk) 16:43, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Can you please provide a source for individuals who are not in the RCAF wearing the RCAF uniform? While technically correct, the environmental commands function incidentally to military services, so I am not sure what point you are trying to make.Garuda28 (talk) 17:45, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Image caption change

In this edit, I've changed the caption from

[[Great Patriotic War]] veteran wearing both a [[gymnastyorka]] and a [[pilotka]].

to

A man in Russia dressed as a veteran of the [[Great Patriotic War]] wearing both a [[gymnastyorka]] and a [[pilotka]].

for the following reasons:

• Even if the person were to have been a veteran of the Great Patriotic War, which ended in 1945, then he should have been at least 16 in 1945 in order for him to have been drafted (or enlisted) into the Soviet Army, which would have made his birth year 1929 at the very latest. As the photo was shot in 2008, the person should have been at least 79 years old, but this man looks far too young to be a veteran of WWII.
• commons:File talk:Dashing war veteran and cadets in SPb.jpg contains a Russian-language complaint, that the man is wearing either an emblem or pendant appearing to be that of the Suvorov Military School, the earliest wearable signs for the graduates of which were implemented in 1958.
• The man also carries with him what looks like an open can of beer.

-Mardus /talk 18:56, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

'In the British Army, the first cap to be adopted'

"In the British Army, the first cap to be adopted of this style was the "Glengarry", which was authorised for all British infantry regiments in 1868 (although Scottish regiments had been wearing it since 1848)"

In fact the military version of the folding bonnet, known as the glengarr was first adopted by the 79th Highlnders around 1841. It was then ordered for all Highland regiments (instead of the round 'Kilmarnock' bonnet- worn by all infantry) in 1852.

However, fore-and-aft folding forage caps were shown being worn by British infantry in illustrations by W.H. Pyne produced in 1803. These were superceded by round bonnets in the course of the Napoleonic wars. JF42 (talk) 21:18, 17 May 2019 (UTC)

Russian images illustrating United Kingdom section

Why have images illustrating Russian caps been placed in the United Kingdom section? JF42 (talk) 07:52, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

• Sorry but could you clarify this? The only illustration currently in the United Kingdom section is a photograph showing the RAF Field Service Cap of 1940. There are two pictures of the Russian pilotka but both appear in the Russia/Soviet Union section. Buistr (talk) 08:51, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Well, in the page I am looking at, at the top left of frame, parallel to the section title 'United Kingdom' is the photograph of a individual dresed in WW2 Russian uniform. On the right hand side opposite is the image of a pilotka. Below that image is a monochrome photograph of King George VI and Air Chief Marshal Hugh Dowding in RAF side caps.

JF42 (talk) 15:50, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

• • I don't see what you're seeing. Maybe the page layout has chanced since 2019? I checked in Chrome both on my Mac and on my phone. Elf | Talk 20:04, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it was an old layout issue, one long ago fixed. There's a reason why one shouldn't respond to years-old comments like these unless a cursory glance shows that the issue persists. Mostly because any such issues are long taken care of. oknazevad (talk) 20:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Tabs containing country names should be put into alphabetical order

In my opinion, any tabs containing country names should be put into alphabetical order as in my opinion it will improve the presentation of the article. Xboxsponge15 (talk) 20:04, 17 May 2020 (UTC)