Talk:Guelphs and Ghibellines

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Split?

Does anyone think this should be split into two articles? I was going to do it that way originally, but all the info about them is usually found together rather than split apart. The French wikipedia has Guelfes and Gibelins though, so it could be done...(or the French ones could be joined, I don't know). Adam Bishop 01:36, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Makes more sense together. But shouldn't there by a x-ref to Dante? orthogonal 11:09, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

There is - "Dante was among the supporters of the White Guelphs, and in 1302 was exiled when the Black Guelphs took control of Florence." Dante also links here, although via two redirects from separate Guelphs and Ghibellines links. Adam Bishop 21:00, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Need to clean those contact lenses, sorry. orthogonal 22:39, 16 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Elf, Goblin

I have read elsewhere (sources can be found if needed) that 'Guelph' and 'Ghibellin' led to the terms 'Elf' and 'Goblin', as names for evil spirits. ("Elf" as in pre-Tolkien Elves of the Shakespeare (or Edda for that matter) variety, and "Goblin" before Tolkien popularized their identification with 'Orcs'.) I don't really feel this belongs with a historical article, but if someone disagrees drop a note here and I'll look for my sources to back this statement up so it can be added. — Jor 03:23, Jan 14, 2004 (UTC)

Those aren't the etymologies according to dictionary.com, at least...Guelph comes from Welf, and Ghibelline comes from Waiblingen, while elf comes from a common Indo-European root pertaining to craftiness, and goblin comes from the same root as cobalt. "Elf" and "Goblin" deriving from these sounds a little too convenient to me. Whenever something sounds linguistically convenient, it's probably wrong :) Adam Bishop 03:25, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware this is probably folk-etymology. Yet it does seem a tad possible to me that Guelphs and Ghibellines were referred to as Elfs and Gobelins (Fr. and OE form of Goblin)—by people who saw the entire faction was as dangerous. It is not dissimilar to Republinazis or DemocRATS ;).

Guelph-Elf and Ghibellin-Goblin was apparently the etymology used by Johnson of the famed first English dictionary: [1] (I am unable to verify or deny that as I cannot find a free copy of this on-line). — Jor 03:37, Jan 14, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, well, I refer you to this:

"Pastern: The knee of a horse. (This is wrong. When Johnson was once asked how he came to make such a mistake, Boswell tells us he replied, "Ignorance, Madam, pure ignorance.")

So, yeah :) Adam Bishop 03:42, 14 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I run samueljohnson.com (the source for the pastern extract), and have a reprint of Johnson's Dictionary (1755). His etymology for "Elf" is tied to 'eilf' [Welsh] and he cites "Baxter's Glossary." I do not see 'guelph' in the listing under elf -- but under 'goblin' there's more. At "goblin," he cites the French 'gobelina,' and while he mentions that "some derive from the Gibellines, a faction in Italy; so that elfe and goblin is guelph and gobeline, becaus ethe children of either party were terrified by their nurses with the name of the other; but it appears that elfe is Welsh, and much older than those factions. 'Eilff Uylbom' are 'phantoms of the night,' and the Germans likewise have long had spirits among tham named Goboldi, from which goblin might be derived." This, Johnson mentions these hypotheses, perhaps out of a desire for completeness, but doesn't sound like he endorses Guelph for elf: he didn't use it at elf, and under goblin repeats the Welsh theory to counter Guelph. -- Frank Lynch

Cool, thanks! Adam Bishop 16:51, 15 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It's in Edmund Spenser (see article page now...). AnonMoos 14:40, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2024

If anyone wants to see what Spenser wrote in the "The Shepheardes Calender" on Guelphs/Ghibellines and Elfs/Goblins, it's now available here: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Shepheardes_Calender/June -- AnonMoos (talk) 23:07, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Guelph, Ontario

Wasn't "Guelph" the maiden name of Queen Victoria? Therefore wouldn't the Guelphs survive down to this day, as the Windsors? There is a city in Canada named Guelph, and I thought it got its name from this connection.

It's not really her "maiden name", but she belonged to the Hannover-Welf-Este dynasty, so the word "Guelph" (i.e. Welf) could be used as a tribute to the 1714-1901 British monarchy... AnonMoos 14:48, 4 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on the article

So which parts come from the EB 1911, & which from the Catholic Encyclopedia? (I ask because, all else equal, I'm more likely trust the EB on its facts than the Catholic Encyclopedia.) Has there been any important research on this aspect of Italian history since the early 20th century? -- llywrch (talk) 00:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

more references

most parts of the article are not referenced, and it would be good to provide at least some few works covering the topic. -- 141.20.16.42 (talk) 16:45, 18 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation

Someone who knows should add the IPA pronunciations of the words, though I'm assuming that the Gs are both silent.--Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 04:26, 11 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Both "hard" (IPA [g]), rather... AnonMoos (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another Italian family coat of arms with Guelph-style heraldic "chief"

Might be a better example, because the color of the chief and the main color of the field are different... AnonMoos (talk) 17:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ezra Pound: "Jew" or "jew"?

I don't know whether Ezra Pound wrote "Jew" or "jew", but the idea that he would refuse to capitalize the word unfortunately has some plausibility... AnonMoos (talk) 16:07, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The quotation in question is from Canto LXXII, which according to The Cantos was written in Italian. So it's in translation anyway. The Italian for Jew is ebreo, lower case, not out of disrespect but because that's what you do in Italian. We should therefore use the standard English convention. Hairy Dude (talk) 17:42, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You're kind of missing the point -- Pound's "translations" could be quite loose (see Propertius), and if Pound chose to disregard English capitalization conventions in some cases, then Wikipedia should report this accurately... AnonMoos (talk) 10:35, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

White and Black Guelphs

The section about white and black Guelphs could be expanded, I think a whole new article digging deeper into their story is necessary. They defined Italian politics for several of the most important decades of the Middle Ages and are the background for all of Dante's work, be it the De Monarchia or the Divine Comedy.Kapiski (talk) 18:03, 7 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Divine Comedy

Although Dante is mentioned twice in the article, nothing is said about this conflict being a major element in the Divine Comedy. Just wondering if that deserves mention, along with "in heraldry" and "the arts". PurpleChez (talk) 19:13, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There was a whole detailed literary references section until removed in this edit: [2]... -- AnonMoos (talk) 18:35, 27 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1122 vs. 13 century

"During the 12th and 13th centuries, rivalry between these two parties dominated political life across medieval Italy. The struggle for power between the Papacy and the Holy Roman Empire arose with the Investiture Controversy, which began in 1075 and ended with the Concordat of Worms in 1122."

How does a controversy that "ended" in 1122, continue in the 13th century???

seems like some editing is needed. NockDrawLoose (talk) 00:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be saying that the Investiture Controversy of 1075-1122 was the beginning of the struggle between papal and imperial parties, a struggle which dominated Italian poltical life during the 12th and 13th centuries... AnonMoos (talk) 03:33, 4 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Shakespeare

Anyone know if there's any truth to the rumor that Romeo and Juliet's respective families are based off of the Guelphs and Ghibellines? I haven't found a reliable source for it. If it is true, I think it should be in the popular culture section, but I'm not sure if it is. Delukiel (talk) 02:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Torriani and Visconti

In the infobox, both the Della Torre and the Visconti were listed as heading both the Ghibelline and the Guelph faction of Milan. Assuming that this is a mistake, I have removed the Visconti from the Guelph column and the Della Torre from the Ghibelline column.

If both of these rivalling families were indeed divided between the factions, this should figure in the article (as well as in the articles on the Della Torre and Visconti families), backed by reliable sources.

Nikolaj1905 (talk) 19:32, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]