Talk:Irreligion

Merge the list to "List of countries by irreligion"

I've made some fixes to the demographics list, but it's still not in great shape. The List of countries by irreligion is better, as it shows multiple sources. I suggest merging this list into that one, to avoid a WP:REDUNDANTFORK. See discussion at Talk:List of countries by irreligion § Adding figures from Pew, merging from irreligion article. --IamNotU (talk) 11:12, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

I replaced the table with an excerpt from List of countries by irreligion, which follows a better methodology. Discussion about wheter some content from the old list is worth keeeping is better suited for Talk:List of countries by irreligion, unless someone actually thinks having two different tables is a good idea. Personuser (talk) 14:42, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Demographic/Eugenic Speculation

I removed the a paragraph on speculation on the future trends of theism vs non-theism based on differences in birth rates. This is obviously another instance of similar predictions going back hundreds of years, only applied to different groups. From the early 19th century, racists in the US were warning about higher birth rates among African-Americans leading to demographic shifts, and homophobes gleefully awaited the extinction of their object of scorn. A few decades later, observation turned to attempted optimisation, in the form of eugenics. Long before that, Aristoteles was the first known jokester to observe "dumb people reproducing like rabbits" and predicting imminent cognitive decline. Yet here we are. The theory is also contradicted by the empirical fact that the share of irreligious people has been rising for decades, even though the differences in birth rates aren't exactly new. For a specific critique of the Pew Study see, for example, here.

This idea might warrant a mention as part of a discussion of other trends and predictions. It does not, however, deserve almost half of the above-the-fold introduction. Matthias Winkelmann (talk) 08:10, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I restored the content for the time being since it looks quite relevant and it is sourced with reliable sources - one of them was from a journal and Pew has experts that do the research. Your argument does not really show that it is of the same type argument considering that projections on religion have been going on for a long time. It is not about eugenics, but about naturally how empirically it has been verified that countries with more religious populations do reproduce more then do countries with less religious affiliation. This definitely impacts the demographics for irreliigon and religion.

In terms of the source you provided, it is a blog by a nobody. No academic standing or expertise on the issue. His arguments are also weak. If you can provide better sources than there may be room to include those as counter points.Ramos1990 (talk) 01:26, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

How are they weak? I find them compelling. And Friendly Atheist is a well-known blog in the Internet atheism community. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:32, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

"Secular world" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Secular world and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 December 16 § Secular world until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Steel1943 (talk) 19:41, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Irreligion isn't the same as absence of religion

Sources (including the encyclopedia cited in the first sentence, when quoted properly) distinguish irreligion as an active rejection, not just absence of religion. The whole article seems as it is now seems to be based mainly on editors' opinions of what irreligion is. To quote the source originally cited (incorrectly) in the article and the OED:

Irreligion is the active rejection of religion in general, or any of its more specific organized forms, as distinct from absence of religion. The Oxford English dictionary defines it as want of religion; hostility to or disregard of religious principles; irreligious conduct.

Best wishes, Pol098 (talk) 20:07, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we also need to add back indifference though because the Encyclopedia you mentioned, does mention it. "Irreligion is a reaction or alternative response to established religion. More specifically, irreligion is those beliefs and actions that are expressive of attitudes of hostility or indifference toward prevailing religion, together with indications of the rejection of its demands." Ramos1990 (talk) 01:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Recent edit

Hi. I see you overdid blockquotes on the same point 4 times on your latest edits, especially [1]. I am just clarifying that the sources do not say that "It says that might not happen because it's possible that "many countries are gradually becoming more secular, generation by generation"." This is WP:SYN since both sources [2] and [3] do not make such a claim. They do state that young people tend to be less religious, but they do not say that the projection of decline in secularity will be reversed or that it will be reversed due to so many young people in growing populations.

Instead they clearly state (2018 source) "But even if parts of the world are secularizing, it is not necessarily the case that the world’s population, overall, is becoming less religious. On the contrary, the most religious areas of the world are experiencing the fastest population growth because they have high fertility rates and relatively young populations. Previously published projections show that if current trends continue, countries with high levels of religious affiliation will grow fastest. The same is true for levels of religious commitment: The fastest population growth appears to be occurring in countries where many people say religion is very important in their lives." and then has a graph stating that "Fastest growing countries are highly religious, while those with shrinking populations tend to be less religious." So having more young people does not result in less religiosity overall.

The 2022 source says "Vast majority of world’s population is projected to have a religion. Differing fertility rates and other demographic data are factored into our population growth projections for the world’s major religious groups, which forecast that the percentage of the global population that is religiously unaffiliated will shrink in the decades ahead – in contrast with the trend seen in the U.S. and Western Europe. The projections anticipate that the vast majority of the world’s people will continue to identify with a religion, including about six-in-ten who will be either Christian (31%) or Muslim (30%) in 2050. Just 13% are projected to have no religion." They do provide a speculation on young people being less religious "on the other hand" and only note one variable - importance of religion (not a very good variable to measure religiosity by the way), but that is not the driving force in the demographics as they never say that it will alter their projection to be a decrease in religion. Economics and other factors may be needed to make a change in the opposite direction, and yet even though they note the correlation between higher economics and lower religious commitment, Pew states that it is not enough to make religion go away and offer a different picture than Karl Marx secularization theorists. Ignoring their major finding would misrepresent the sources here. Ramos1990 (talk) 00:45, 3 December 2024 (UTC)